Straight-6 300 Engine Swop

[Fellro]

Pretty much the black I saw looked more like grease, not staining, but it really doesn't matter.


The only way a decent weld could be done is if it was bolted to a block, and they have to gouge the break such that they can get full penetration. Otherwise it will most likely not stay in proper position, and will also be weaker than the original by far. The things I would be concerned with beyond the broken bell is that there may have been some internal damage, as the only way bells break like that are when the converter isn't seated properly or something wasn't, ans they tried pulling it up to the block with it not all in proper placement. As Charlie suggested, swapping it from your case to another case would find any of those issues, if they don't just try to sneak it through. At this point, it doesn't seam they are too concerned about making it right, just getting you gone.

On the oil foaming, think about how something like milk foams up when you run a beater through it. The beater in the case of the oil would be the crankshaft, as it dips into the oil level and whips it up. If you are overfilled enough, this is what actually happens. There is a valve in the oil pump that keeps it from over pressurizing the system. It of course can not control low oil pressure, only higher pressure.

 

[Kaajot]

Pretty much the black I saw looked more like grease, not staining, but it really doesn't matter.


The only way a decent weld could be done is if it was bolted to a block, and they have to gouge the break such that they can get full penetration. Otherwise it will most likely not stay in proper position, and will also be weaker than the original by far. The things I would be concerned with beyond the broken bell is that there may have been some internal damage, as the only way bells break like that are when the converter isn't seated properly or something wasn't, ans they tried pulling it up to the block with it not all in proper placement. As Charlie suggested, swapping it from your case to another case would find any of those issues, if they don't just try to sneak it through. At this point, it doesn't seam they are too concerned about making it right, just getting you gone.

On the oil foaming, think about how something like milk foams up when you run a beater through it. The beater in the case of the oil would be the crankshaft, as it dips into the oil level and whips it up. If you are overfilled enough, this is what actually happens. There is a valve in the oil pump that keeps it from over pressurizing the system. It of course can not control low oil pressure, only higher pressure.

Ok, check on the oil. I just thought maybe I'd done some damage to the old engine when I did an oil change by overfilling it. Is that possible?

Anyway, the transmission mechanic is only willing to do the weld still and get a warranty on the weld. I don't like this.

Also, he's swearing up and down that my guy said he didn't take the torque converter off the engine (which is the reverse of how the original conversation went). What really happened was a misunderstanding of unbolting the flex plate from the torque converter prior to pulling the tranny with the converter.

And that's where the transmission mechanic vs my engine mechanic are differing. The engine mechanic that's been helping with the rebuild says you unbolt the flex plate from the torqe converter. The transmission mechanic is saying he didn't have to unbolt the flex plate to remove the transmission with torque converter.

Both of them were saying the other said that they would leave the torque converter and pull the transmission, so they're both confused about the actual accusation.

But what is true is my transmission was less than 30 days into a 90 day warranty.

The bolt on the top 12 o'clock position of the bell housing was broken clean off, whether it was old or new seems irrelevant now because that's how we found it. It's a prove we sabotaged it kind of deal in the court of law -- else it was broken by faulty transmission install.

The flex plate was cracked in a perfect ring around the bolt holes when we pulled it out with evidence of grinding from the break and operating that way.

I can get $700 in small claims court from him eventually and just fix this myself with my engine guys.

 

[O'Rattlecan]

That's true, when you're separating them, you remove the torque converter from the flex plate. That's exactly how you go about pulling the transmission.

Ryan

 

[Fellro]

Ok, check on the oil. I just thought maybe I'd done some damage to the old engine when I did an oil change by overfilling it. Is that possible?Yes, overfilling can be bad, it depends HOW overfull it was.

Anyway, the transmission mechanic is only willing to do the weld still and get a warranty on the weld. I don't like this.

Also, he's swearing up and down that my guy said he didn't take the torque converter off the engine (which is the reverse of how the original conversation went). What really happened was a misunderstanding of unbolting the flex plate from the torque converter prior to pulling the tranny with the converter.

And that's where the transmission mechanic vs my engine mechanic are differing. The engine mechanic that's been helping with the rebuild says you unbolt the flex plate from the torqe converter. The transmission mechanic is saying he didn't have to unbolt the flex plate to remove the transmission with torque converter.THIS is a problem. You are better off taking the converter down WITH the trans, and most definitely MUST have it loose when putting it back or you have a very high risk of the converter not seating into the pump, more so on Fords due to the way the converter engages the pump. And if he claims the converter came off without unbolting, he is full of it, unless the flex plate was broken.

Both of them were saying the other said that they would leave the torque converter and pull the transmission, so they're both confused about the actual accusation.

But what is true is my transmission was less than 30 days into a 90 day warranty.

The bolt on the top 12 o'clock position of the bell housing was broken clean off, whether it was old or new seems irrelevant now because that's how we found it. It's a prove we sabotaged it kind of deal in the court of law -- else it was broken by faulty transmission install.

The flex plate was cracked in a perfect ring around the bolt holes when we pulled it out with evidence of grinding from the break and operating that way.

I can get $700 in small claims court from him eventually and just fix this myself with my engine guys.

If what the trans mechanic claims is true, he did not remove the converter, there are a few things wrong here. 1.) the converter rarely seats properly on Fords when still attached to the motor. 2.) If he never pulled the converter, then he did not replace it as should be done with a "rebuild". That would mean he just replaced clutches and seals, but not he converter, which on a good rebuild will also be new/rebuilt as well.

 

[Kaajot]

That's true, when you're separating them, you remove the torque converter from the flex plate. That's exactly how you go about pulling the transmission.

Ryan

Is there like a certified mechanic book out there that says this? So far I've got statements from a lot of Ford mechanics but a nice hard piece of documentation stating this procedure would pretty much make this a non-issue.

I appreciate the support from you gents on this. This is my first transmission and engine swop, so I'm just getting familiar with what has to happen.

My engine mechanic was really good about showing me parts of my engine, what he was doing, and what was going bad on it and what was still good to swop to the new engine. Very honest guy so far and has used his discount on all the parts (Advance Auto Parts). The new flex plate to replace the jacked up one was $20, give or take (as an example).

As for oil issue on the engine, let's say it was several quarts way too full. I had a really bad blonde moment on the last oil change.

 

[Kaajot]

If what the trans mechanic claims is true, he did not remove the converter, there are a few things wrong here. 1.) the converter rarely seats properly on Fords when still attached to the motor. 2.) If he never pulled the converter, then he did not replace it as should be done with a "rebuild". That would mean he just replaced clutches and seals, but not he converter, which on a good rebuild will also be new/rebuilt as well.

Well, both mechanics are saying this:

A. You remove the transmission with the torque converter attached.

The engine mechanic is saying this also:

A1. Remove the transmission with the torque converter attached AFTER disengaging (unbolting?) the flex plate prior to pulling the transmission.

The trans mechanic is saying you don't have to remove the flex plate prior to pulling the transmission w/torque converter.

Both agree you do not leave the torque converter attached to the engine.

So is the engine mechanic's method better/making sense, or are they both correct?


For Oil Issue: Oil was filled way too much. Several quarts overfilled. I had a blonde moment. I ran it like that only for about 40 miles total (2 trips into town) before we stopped operations due to the hard knock in the engine.

 

[Fellro]

The flexplate can not be removed prior to pulling the torque converter, as it covers the bolts that attach the flexplate to the crank shaft. You only remove the bolts that attach the torque converter to the flexplate, and it comes out with the transmission. THEN you can remove the flexplate.

On the oil overfill, that is more than enough oil to cause it to whip into a foam, and then the foam would be what was lubing the engine... so yes, damage can most certainly result from that kind of overfill, but not high pressure, but actually lack of pressure.

 

[Kaajot]

The flexplate can not be removed prior to pulling the torque converter, as it covers the bolts that attach the flexplate to the crank shaft. You only remove the bolts that attach the torque converter to the flexplate, and it comes out with the transmission. THEN you can remove the flexplate.

On the oil overfill, that is more than enough oil to cause it to whip into a foam, and then the foam would be what was lubing the engine... so yes, damage can most certainly result from that kind of overfill, but not high pressure, but actually lack of pressure.

Well, we had about 4 gallons of oil come out. It was really overfilled for a short period of time.

What about the flexplate on TC/transmission install? Should the transmission mechanic have looked at the flexplate?

The plate looks really bad. And I guess what we're getting at is he pulled my old transmission but left the TC and Flexplate installed then because he should have seen the flexplate when he put it into the truck.

I think I'm finally understanding what my engine mechanic is saying. The transmission mechanic left the TC in the truck even though he swears up and down he didn't (now) because he would have had to pull the TC out if he had done it properly and swopped the TC to the new Transmission or installed a brand new TC with transmission.

 

[Fellro]

It is entirely possible to pull the converter and not notice the cracked flex plate, as most times the flex plate is fine. If it was totally broken like you see now at the time of install, then it may have been noticeable, but realistically, there really isn't any reason they would need to look at the plate if there was no prior complaint leading them to do so. I also have lost faith in the attentiveness of trans installers when they totally missed a bad pinion bearing on a co-worker's S10 when they had pulled the transmission. It was beyond obvious.

They could very easily have not seated the converter even though they had it off, it isn't hard to do. I have broken a case on a C6 once many many moons ago. I learned how to identify that it isn't seated from that one.

 

[Kaajot]

It is entirely possible to pull the converter and not notice the cracked flex plate, as most times the flex plate is fine. If it was totally broken like you see now at the time of install, then it may have been noticeable, but realistically, there really isn't any reason they would need to look at the plate if there was no prior complaint leading them to do so. I also have lost faith in the attentiveness of trans installers when they totally missed a bad pinion bearing on a co-worker's S10 when they had pulled the transmission. It was beyond obvious.

They could very easily have not seated the converter even though they had it off, it isn't hard to do. I have broken a case on a C6 once many many moons ago. I learned how to identify that it isn't seated from that one.

Ok, I think I'm understanding everything now without being an expert/certified mechanic.

It sounds like although I am going to have a hard time proving beyond reasonable doubt that he installed it incorrectly that he will also have a hard time beyond reasonable doubt prove that my engine mechanics caused the damage and certainly didn't have anything to do with the flex plate being bad.

The warranty is still valid in my eyes because we were not doing transmission work (initially) and we found the flex plate cracked in a circle, which brings to question as dustybumpers said the integrity of the TC and transmission now that it has been operating with a broken flex plate. Therefore, the warranty should be upheld on that basis because the transmission may now be defective based on the flex plate discovery, regardless of whether he wants to and can prove that my engine mechanics broke the tranny bell housing (which, they did not, I saw them unscrew/loosen the bolt and the bloody piece came out with the screw still in it!!!)

And it wasn't even like day 89 on this warranty. It was day 20 give or take. I'm going to hammer this guy if he doesn't make it right.

 

[Kaajot]

That isn't a cracked bell, that is broken! Commonly happens from not having the converter fully seated into the pump when they are drawing the bell to the motor.

Cracked/broken flex plates can often sound like a bad rod bearing. It may have been also due to the aforementioned not seating the converter.

Should I be pressing this issue on the rod bearing too prompting the engine swop? This was not some just-for-fun maintenance.

IE: This is what I would postulate legally in addition to the cracked flex plate.

A. TC was not seated properly.
B. Flex plate plausibly cracked by TC not seated properly.
C. Engine rebuild began due to plausible bad rod bearing investigation, not related to transmission and not prompting consumer (me) to bring the truck back to transmission mechanic.
D. Found broken flex plate due to plausible TC not seated properly, alerting warranty issue with transmission.

.: Transmission warranty valid d2 TC not seated properly and discovered while investigating engine rebuild from plausible bad rod bearing that is similar knock to a bad flex plate.

 

[Fellro]

The rod bearing has much more to do with the over filling, and less to do with the transmission troubles. It is pretty hard to break a bell housing when removing a motor, much easier to do when installing a trans and drawing the bolts up.

 

[Kaajot]

The rod bearing has much more to do with the over filling, and less to do with the transmission troubles. It is pretty hard to break a bell housing when removing a motor, much easier to do when installing a trans and drawing the bolts up.

Thank you for that!

This guy swore up and down he'd seen it all the time that engine pulls from inexperienced guys break bell housings.

My guys didn't try to lift it out until the bolt was out and the piece came with it into their hands.

I told him to get me a new transmission today and I pushed the issue about the flex plate operating as a broken piece against the TC and transmission -- and that alone should warrant a complete rebuild or replacement of the transmission regardless of who he believes cracked the bell housing.

So naturally he told me to come pick my transmission up because he had "out of the kindness of his heart" offered to pay for the welding of the bell housing. He of course is omitting that "out of the kindness of his heart" he is completely renegotiating on his 90 day warranty. I've been given the SV-35 complaint form by the DMV to put some pain on him and if it doesn't satisfy reimbursement for the new transmission I now have to buy and have installed, then small claims court.

And he gets dinged by the DMV. But he doesn't care and said he was done talking to me.

I feel very good about my position. I didn't break anything to get him to warranty this thing. I would much rather have had a working transmission, but I'm kind of glad the engine swop showed me the broken flex plate and broken bell housing. It would have affected me later down the road when not in warranty.

Take that, overfilled oil guy.... (I may be shooting myself in the foot here...)

 

[Fellro]

You really have to crank on the engine to get it to separate from the bell if you leave a bolt in, and get real rammy to break it. You typically will bend the bolt, not break it. However, if you tighten a bolt when it is pushing against the engine prematurely, such as when the converter is held out by not being seated in the pump, it is very easy to break the bell housing. The difference is in the support. When the bell is tight against the block, the line up pins also keep it from rotating. Friction and tension on the bolt keep it from slipping around. When the bolt is pulling in, it has no support, and the bell is hanging out in the air. The most common way it does it is one side is mostly tight, then they try to draw another in and pop! the bell breaks.

 

[Kaajot]

You really have to crank on the engine to get it to separate from the bell if you leave a bolt in, and get real rammy to break it. You typically will bend the bolt, not break it. However, if you tighten a bolt when it is pushing against the engine prematurely, such as when the converter is held out by not being seated in the pump, it is very easy to break the bell housing. The difference is in the support. When the bell is tight against the block, the line up pins also keep it from rotating. Friction and tension on the bolt keep it from slipping around. When the bolt is pulling in, it has no support, and the bell is hanging out in the air. The most common way it does it is one side is mostly tight, then they try to draw another in and pop! the bell breaks.

It's funny how these details don't come out from the transmission mechanic, but that makes a lot of sense.

Thanks for the education on this. I only crewed F-15s as a mechanic, and I wasn't the best, but I started to get just smart enough to be dangerous by the time I commissioned and became a Navigator on C-130s.

 

[O'Rattlecan]

I can envision the easiest way to crack a bell housing to be that the line-up pins are not seated and aligned correctly, and someone is cranking a bolt against it during installation.

Ryan

 

[Fellro]

It actually is pretty hard to have two bolts in and not get the pins to line up. More often it is that the converter or in some case s the studs on the converter against the plate. The thing with the converter not seating into the pump gear is that it then had the center hub pressing into the crank, then you tighten the bolts and try to compress the converter in between the space of the engine crank and the steel pump and gears. Normally, if properly seated, the converter has a little bit of a gap between the front of the converter and the flex plate, but when not seated, there is no gap and it actually protrudes a bit past the plane of the bell housing.

 

[Kaajot]

Hey guys I will be posting pictures of the engine later because we cleaned it up and got the welded transmission back in... past my 90 day warranty nevermind 45 of those days were spent fixing the bad transmission/flexplate.

We had a knock, turns out the helpers dropped a few of my spark plugs and there was no gap - fixed. Running pretty smooth now. However, we replaced the IAC, cleaned the TAB/TAD, replaced the oil pressure sensor (was sticking), replaced the egr valve solenoid and egr something else (valve?). Yeah, plus three of the injectors were not functioning (2 completely clogged, 1 burning).

Finally, the dumb exhaust manifold didn't seal properly and we had an exhaust leak destroy the seal, so a new one is going on. Hopefully that fixes it. The engine and everything inside looks pretty good. The original engine will be rebuilt and painted and then swopped back into the truck, so that will look amazing too.

HOWEVER, I may or may not have mentioned the following:

The transmission mechanic changed out my E40D 4-speed transmission with a 3-speed C6. The guys are telling me that's great for towing, a little less great on gas mileage. However, I'm getting engine lights and fault codes for EGR (was hoping those would go away) and possibly E40D and ABS.

Should I be filing a complaint with the NYS DMV regarding him putting in a 3-Speed? I asked him to fix my truck's transmission, not frankenstein it. Is this an issue that will cause problems down the line, or is it simply a matter of disconnecting the E40D? Could the EGR fault codes be coupled to this since the EGR is now all new parts as well and functioning properly as far as we can tell?

Any help appreciated.

And I will have pics of the cab inside too - finishing wiring and vinyl floor install, new bench seat looks sweet, new seatbelts going in too.

 

[Fellro]

I would be a bit on the pissed side, as you gave up overdrive AND lockup, and unless you trick the computer, you will fight codes. Not sure on the EGR being related tot he trans, as it really shouldn't.

 

[dustybumpers]

Not only will he fight codes, it will NEVER run right. He will have to change the computer to a earlier model one that had 4.9 EFI and c6

EGR code is different issue.
If it is a code 32, there is a simple solution.