Hydrogen

[blacksnapon]

I guess I'm going to get my opportunity to jump on the hydrogen bandwagon. The university of Missouri-Rolla, is purchasing 2 e-450 shuttle vans to go between Rolla, and Ft. Leonard Wood. Hydrogen powered, and they contracted Ford motor co. to service and fill them. There is going to be tanks, and a hydrogen manufacturing station. The training will be on site at the dealership. We have to have the emergency services to train with us to make sure they know what to do in case of an emergency. I guess it was inevitable, because the by product of combustion is water.

 

[Brian_B]

Interesting. Keep us updated.

 

[mrfixit]

That would be a training to covet, I imagine! I have been curious about aspects of the hydrogen generation processes... like how much old-school electricity it takes to make it, etc, lol... looking forward to more on it!

 

[blacksnapon]

I was told that the generator/manufacturer is the size of a high school locker. Now I'm really confused!

 

[mrfixit]

Oh it could be... I really do not know! I didnt mean to confuse the issue. I'm just a curious onlooker where that technology is concerned.
But it does beg the question... if the average joe, or even a corporation, would be able to generate hydrogen, isn't this opening a door for trouble, in the sense of national security?

 

[blacksnapon]

Oh it could be... I really do not know! I didnt mean to confuse the issue. I'm just a curious onlooker where that technology is concerned.
But it does beg the question... if the average joe, or even a corporation, would be able to generate hydrogen, isn't this opening a door for trouble, in the sense of national security?

I am assuming that adequate security will be built in to the setup for the generation process. If it accomplishes the generation quickly, is storage much of an issue? I really dont like the idea of the dealership putting out advertisements about it. The training will probably be intense both for safety and general usage.

 

[mrfixit]

I started googling on it after I asked that... hard to believe so many generators are already out there! Of course, there are also a lot of goofball sites too. At least being informed and educated in it presumably will lead to a safer mindset as well.

 

[blacksnapon]

I got out of Hindenberg training! Something about me being stretched too thin allready!

 

[6L PWR]

me being stretched too thin allready!

I don't recall that about you when we met.

 

[blacksnapon]

If I turn to the side, you can't see me!

 

[6L PWR]

If I turn to the side, you can't see me!

What, behind a redwood? ROFLMAO I can hide behind my truck.

 

[Gunner]

I was told that the generator/manufacturer is the size of a high school locker. Now I'm really confused!

Hey Vince, got some questions:

1) Does this generator generate it's hydrogen from water, or from a hydrocarbon source?

2) If it uses water, what is the hydrogen's cost per cubic foot?

3) If it's a hydrocarbon, what does it break down to create it's hydrogen

4) How much does it cost to operate this generating unit?

5) What are the byproducts of this generating unit?

The reason why I ask (other than professional curiousity, to be sure), is that from everything I've read it's more cost effective to create hydrogen from petroleum products than it is from water (due to the fact that if you use electrolosys, you use more power splitting the water than you get back in the form of hydrogen gas).

Just kind of curious

Gunner

 

[blacksnapon]

I'll know more later. I know they just put in a large galvanized pipe from the roof into the garage. I'm kind of curious as to how fast it can generate (do we have to have a lot of storage, or will it generate on demand?). Kind of worried about that potential bad hair day sitting outside!

 

[mrfixit]

Maybe they want to get their own blimp....

 

[Fellro]

The fuel cells were being designed using petroleum, so much for breaking our dependence on oil... I wouldn't be surprised to find out the same is true for the hydrogen process, as like stated, it takes a lot of energy to break Hydrogen from water, because it is perfectly happy with the arrangement...

 

[mrxlh]

The most cost effective way to generate hydrogen is from syngas, which is syntheisized (hyco gas, HydrogenCo2 gas) from natural gas. I asked some of the engineers if it were possible to make Hydrogen from water, and they said yes, but it would not become cost effective til gasoline and diesel were in the $10 per gallon range. Methanol, Hydrogen, and Ammonia are all derived from Natural Gas. Nothing even comes close in the cost department to introduce an alternative method. Methanol for use as a fuel is rapidly catching up, but not as far as "food grade" is concerned.

 

[Fellro]

What would be food grade methanol? Ethanol and Methanol are a bit different, methanol is more corrosive.I would be curious if ethanol would be an effective supply to make hydrogen as well...I would imagine it should be, but the major downside is the fact of double processing, same story on methanol. My understanding is that methanol is actually waning, while ethanol is ramping up. Not looking to debate using ethanol here, just talking about the sources for hydrogen, and a few things in that regard. I may have misunderstood what you were saying as well....

 

[mrxlh]

Food grade methanol is what ends up in food stuffs. Wrigleys chewing gum was the worlds largest user of food grade methanol as a sweetner. Methanol's extremely high cost of manufacturing (due to the increase in price of natural gas feed stock) is why its domestic production is waining. It is accelerating in other countries where natural gas is far cheaper than here. Trinidad is one of the worlds largets methanol producers on the planet. Methanex (a Canadian Company) is the operator of the plant. It has become far cheaper and more economical to ship Methanol than it is to import cheap natural gas via LNG and terminals, due to the lack of support by the U.S. (the not in my back yard syndrome) While Henry Hub prices are lingering around the $7.00 per mcf (1000 cubic feet) in Trinidad, its probably around $1.00-$1.50 per mcf. Eathanol would not be cost effective due to the ammount of processes it takes to make ethanol, then convert it or "reform" it into Hydrogen. This is the vast complication of the fuel cell. The feed stock or source is its only current limitations. Well that and the logistics of the fueling stations. Which from reading some things here that the logistics of that is not as much of an issue.

 

[Fellro]

Ok, I didn't know about that, but does sound viable for use that way.I know what you mean about the "not in my back yard" syndrome...

 

[mrxlh]

My prediction is diesel powered electric hybrids are the thing we should be concentrating on now. Couple that with B99 compliant epa ratings and you have an instant winner. If the battery technology is there, the diesel could only have to run 30-40% of the driving time. Thus further reducing the emissions and increasing the fuel economy. Hydrogen fuel cell technololgy was the premier front runner til Natural Gas soared in price. 100-150mpg VW rabbit or whatever they offer the diesel in becomes a very possible reality. Who wouldn't buy one of those?