400 Heads...newbie question

[73F100Shortbed]

^^^

 

[LEB Ben]

I only wish I would have known about tmeyerinc BEFORE I had my engine rebuilt.

I still feel terrible...back before 'I knew who tim was' (and when I was alot more broke), I'd pick his brain for good long time, then end up buying elsewhere. In my defense, I didn't know about his price match/best price dealio.

 

[blackhat620]

hey I hear ya.. we all know what ford did to the 400.. cam, compression, etc. but they also choked the exhaust port.. you must not have looked closely to a D5 head dude.. take a look.. why change everything ford did except the exhaust port.." change out the Valves in a D5 head... Why??? get some better heads before you spend any money on D5's...I bet a small block exhaust port flows more than the D5 head.. and with that huge intake port the % is way off... The Cleveland heads have a much better flow ratio than the D5 ... HUMMMM didn't hear you mention anything about that..

And a Clevor is a Windsor with Cleveland heads (so many people call the Cleveland a Clevor) .. I built a 351W with C heads had plenty of power below 4000... any 302 with Cleveland heads is not going to have any low end we know that, I remember the boss 302... this is a 4" stroke 400

I did not say anything about porting the heads.. I said I have ported them didn't tell him to port anything..
Have a nice day

Dude,
The difference in E/I flow ratio is about 3% between a D0/D1 and a D5, and there is much more important parts to the power equation than the E/I flow ratio you get on the bench. The change in E/I flow ratio on the later D5 heads will have no effect on his stock daily driver on pump gas running at low RPM (ie less than 4k). Also check out the E/I flow ratio of a 4V Cleveland head it is much lower than any of the 2V Cleveland heads. The 4V heads only flow 5.9% (9.4 cfm) more on the exhaust side than 2V heads, the big difference is on the intake side, 4V heads flow 25% (50 cfm) more than 2V heads. FYI the E/I of 4V heads is 68.7% and the E/I of 2V heads is 81%.

As far as changing everything Ford did, I told Ben to either switch to 2V Aussie heads or keep the stock heads & update the valves. If he keeps the stock heads he needs to change the valves to one piece to gain the dependability he wants. Switching from D5 to early D0/D1 2V heads for his 4wd daily driver on pump gas is an exercise in futility and a waste of money & effort. If he wants to change heads he needs to either go with 2V Aussie heads or up his bank account and install some nice aftermarket heads.
But before changing heads to achieve his original question of more performance he needs to change his cam.

BTW a D5 is a small block head, D0, D1, D3, D5 all small block heads.

FYI, FMC built and sold the first "Clevor" it was the 1969 Boss 302 (Windsor block with 4V Cleveland heads).

Oh ya and there was nothing wrong with the 400 I built with the D5 heads on it.. it ran very well.. I've been doing this **** for years...

Dude you are the one who was whining about how poorly your D5 400 was running, it either ran well or it didn't, make up your mind.

yup the compression is a problem that's why I changed the pistons

also the original poster will more than likely never do a thing to his 400... just saying..

The compression is the second problem, first problem is the cam, and the third problem, for a street vehicle on pump gas, is the open combustion chamber on the 2V heads. Up the compression and keep the OEM open chamber heads and it will pre-detonate faster than a 16 year old with a cheap hooker, running on pump gas.

There is a great deal of myth & legend surrounding the "Cleveland" engine, most of it is myth & legend. The power of the Cleveland came from its canted large valve design, huge intake runners and a closed chamber, running on high octane fuel. The records set with the Cleveland were done with the 4V closed chamber heads. 4V open chamber heads will work if you run domed pistons and race fuel or use force induction. A step back in time will show that in the 60's and early 70's you could pull into your local gas station and by premium fuel (100-102 octane) for less than 40 cents a gallon and regular fuel was 94-95 octane. Making high compression (10.7/11 - 1) 302 Boss & 351 Boss engines possible in daily drivers on pump gas. The 2V & 4V open chamber heads were all done to drop the compression ratio so that they would run on low octane unleaded pump gas and meet EPA emissions restrictions.

BTW nice of you to diss Ben and his 400 build, you are a class act.

 

[393clevor]

Thank you.... go copy and paste more info about the 400... So you got some flow numbers for the D5 400 head I would like to see them.?? and why can't you just admit the D5 head has a restricted exhaust port and is holding it back... What's the problem... Oh wait that's right no one ever talks about the D5 head because they are junk so there is no info for you to copy and paste.. sorry.. guess you didn't look at the pics I posted..and thank you for posting how well balanced the Cleveland 2v heads are (E/I of 2V heads is 81%.) that just shows how will the 351C head flows... bolt that to a 400 and you will pick up some horsepower.. I never said the 400 ran like crap I said it ran way better after I changed the heads.... do you know a guy named DanH ? just wondering thats all... and stop using the boss 302 as a comparison to his 400 not even close to the same animal.. I am sorry if I offended Ben I all ready apologized to him.. I have run across a lot of posters that are just dreamers and never do anything to there rigs.. or like you that never get there hands dirty and actually build anything they just come to these forums and copy and paste what they read from another forum.. but whatever you say... and please post those flow numbers of the D5 head I would be very interested in them.. seems you did your home work on your last post .. took a few days but you found it.. OH and while you are looking find yourself a clue and post back... Bahahahahahahahahahahah

Thank you all for your time and sorry if this post got all stupid, I don't normally let things get this bad but I know how bad the exhaust port is on those D5 heads... I will cut one up when I pull mine off to show just how bad they are and if I get my flow bench together I will test it.. until then happy motoring....

 

[dragogt]

I still stand by my statement that with the Right (custom) cam and intake 4v heads would do great in his truck..

BTW are the Aussie heads the one and the same as the (newer) 3v heads???

 

[DNFXDLI]

They do have smaller runners and closed chambers Aaron..other than that I don't know.

 

[dragogt]

Quick search..

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2007/02/Ford400/

http://www.chiheads.com.au/cnc_ported_3V.php

 

[DNFXDLI]

They do look similar.

 

[393clevor]

I still stand by my statement that with the Right (custom) cam and intake 4v heads would do great in his truck..

BTW are the Aussie heads the one and the same as the (newer) 3v heads???

X2.... he would just need adapters for an intake..

 

[mrxlh]

Yank the 351mistake/400 and build a 351W and be done with it. It will negate all the futile excercies in trying to turn CS in to CS.

 

[5.0Flareside]

Yank the 351mistake/400 and build a 351W and be done with it. It will negate all the futile excercies in trying to turn CS in to CS.

honestly.. now having this Cleveland in the 87... it has really opened my eyes to the potential the 351M/400 have.. being desmogged, straight up timing, a good cam, and good intake/carb.. they can be stout!

 

[DNFXDLI]

Yank the 351mistake/400 and build a 351W and be done with it. It will negate all the futile excercies in trying to turn CS in to CS.

 

[mrxlh]

Anyone ever seen a C ant or a M ight make 1200 HP? The W inner does in class 4 and 8 truck racing trim. The C ant and M ight wont stay together, teh W inner will.

 

[5.0Flareside]

Anyone ever seen a C ant or a M ight make 1200 HP? The W inner does in class 4 and 8 truck racing trim. The C ant and M ight wont stay together, teh W inner will.

im not arguing that no doubt.

the Windsor is my favorite by far and above.

but the 71-72 clevelands are, IMO, better stock for stock vs. stock 351W's.

 

[DNFXDLI]

Anyone ever seen a C ant or a M ight make 1200 HP? The W inner does in class 4 and 8 truck racing trim. The C ant and M ight wont stay together, teh W inner will.

Mine will make a nice 525ish and keep it stock looking

 

[mrxlh]

Yank the 351mistake/400 and build a 351W and be done with it. It will negate all the futile excercies in trying to turn CS in to CS.

Otherwise, put a good cam in it, good ignition system, good carb, do full radius valve grind on the heads you have and call it a day. If you were racing circle track get heads, but do you realistically think you can turn a C/M 7000 rpms to pick up what an open port will make up in volumetric flow? Wont happen, end of story. For the 2700 - 4100 rpm band range that the truck will see, port velocity is of far greater importance than port size, expotentially when you INCREASE compression in an open chamber head. I know everyone is an expert on cylinder heads, I am not, Jerry Branch is, look him up, he has 50 years of research to back this up.

 

[mrxlh]

Mine will make a nice 525ish and keep it stock looking

Yeah but you could have got that out of a 460 just updating the carb and putting a new set of points in it. Not haveing to find 16 different magical set of heads.

 

[DNFXDLI]

Yeah but you could have got that out of a 460 just updating the carb and putting a new set of points in it. Not haveing to find 16 different magical set of heads.

Well..then it would not be the original block...and it was only one nicely engineered set of heads

 

[5.0Flareside]

uh oh.. the great Tim Meyer is online!!!!!

 

[TMI]

Yup, I have not seen a 1200 HP Cleveland, matter of fact there is no such thing as a 1200 HP Windsor either.
You have to realize that the HP at that level, there is no more original parts involved. Crower, Dart, Oliver, Manley, Ford Racing are what those engines are all about. Chances are the heads on an engine that make 1200 HP may not have an inline valve train like a Windsor. May even look more like a Cleveland at that point. How small block performance engines did Ford have in the Windsor family?
289 HiPo, 302 Boss, half Cleveland there, 351 Boss, all Cleveland there.

The Windsor & Cleveland together make a pretty good team.
Here's one of our Windsor/Cleveland combos.

http://youtu.be/h82nco_fAJE