Thicker Oil?

[TexasNomad]

How many miles No idea but I know it has been rebuilt not to long ago I say a year or so.
The reason I like running thicker oil is, my engines run smoother in the summers here in west Texas where it can hit 112 sitting in traffic and the winters are not bad maybe a few days of freezing weather...

 

[SuperCab]

Hmph... Not questioning the "correctness" of your statement... But by that reasoning-- couldn't I keep a jug of milk for years without fear of expiration as long as it's sealed?

Of course! I always buy milk by the crate and let it set around. It makes great motor oil! :ROFL2:

 

[blackhat620]

How many miles No idea but I know it has been rebuilt not to long ago I say a year or so.
The reason I like running thicker oil is, my engines run smoother in the summers here in west Texas where it can hit 112 sitting in traffic and the winters are not bad maybe a few days of freezing weather...

Hmm thicker oil and smoother running doesn't make sense. If you mean quieter, do you have some lifter, rocker arm or piston slap noise you are trying to mask? The thicker oil will increase the engine scuff at start up, and even 112F in traffic is not much, since the cooling system still maintains an acceptable engine temp. I live in the Phoenix area and 115F ambient is pretty normal in the summer with highs to 120F. Even towing heavy, have never seen even a 15W-40 break down to unusable levels in these temps. The thicker 20W-50 was design for engines with high shear characteristics, like high reving 4 cylinder, air cooled and motorcycles that use the same oil in the gear box & engine.


IMO you would get better lubrication results using either a 15W-40 HDEO or a good quality 10W-30. With todays modern oils using highly refined Group III+ base stocks, modern dino oil performs as well as any synthetic, with the single exception being extreme cold (ie Alaska, Canada).
Want to save some money then use a good quality 15W-40 HDEO ULSD safe CJ-4 rated dino oil, or if you have non-roller cam engines then the CI-4 rated HDEO dino oil would be a better choice. Rotella, Delo 400 or Delvac are all readily available and economically priced. Gas engines will not even begin to beat these oils up. You really don't need to run synthetic oils, unless you are running extended OCI or sleep better at night from doing so.

 

[tomtoc]

can you mix the weights? use a couple 5w30's with the 20w50.

 

[blackhat620]

can you mix the weights? use a couple 5w30's with the 20w50.

Problem with mixing weights or oil types is now you are playing chemist without knowing what amounts of each chemical you are mixing together, and you will not know what weight oil you end up with or if the additives and mixtures are compaitible. IMO a quart of oil doesn't cost enough to be messing around playing backyard chemist.

 

[TexasNomad]

15W-40 HDEO HDEO ULSD HDEO extended OCI .

I don't know what any of that means.
And since when does a 4Cly or air cooled engine run 20w50 that's the oil we used to put in to DE60 engines on our trucks a 4 banger couldn't hardly even crank over with that kind of oil in it, I know some motorbikes use 10w30 most of today's engines and smaller engines run weights 5W20, 5W30, 5W40, 5w20 and some of the new smaller cars are running 0W40 oil I've never seen a 4banger running 20w50 that's what Diesels run most of the time.
I don't know the science behind the Oils But I know all the study's I've seen over the years say Syn oil beats the hell out of "Dino" every time.
If Dino was just as good as a full syn oil then why are so many Trucking company's changing over to syn oils in their fleets?
I'm sorry man I can't match your knowledge of the science of these oils but every thing I've never seen or read on Dino Vs Syn, syn all ways beat the Dino hands down every time.
And yes I've all ways ran a heavy syn in all my engines and I feel a difference in the way the engines feel if I didn't then you can bet your good name I wouldn't be using running RP in all my engines and even lawn mowers

 

[eco]

Problem with mixing weights or oil types is now you are playing chemist without knowing what amounts of each chemical you are mixing together, and you will not know what weight oil you end up with or if the additives and mixtures are compaitible. IMO a quart of oil doesn't cost enough to be messing around playing backyard chemist.

Mixing Rotella T with the GM EOS is known to probuce a good used oil analysis in gas engines.

 

[masterbeavis]

You are trying to compare apples and oranges here. If your oil container has leaked, and you are uncomfortable using it because it may have lost some of its ingrediants, then put it in the lawn mower. But if the bottle is intact the oil inside will be just fine. You can shake it if you want to but the additives generally stay in suspension since they have chemical bonds that form with the base oil.
.

I bought some Castrol GTX 10-30? in 1G jugs on clearance a couple of years ago. I noticed that once empty, the jugs had the usual residual oil remnants, AND a slightly darker "silt" at the bottom. I am not sure what it was, never bothered asking.

 

[surewhynot]

BTW since we are in chemistry class, glass is always a liquid and constantly moving. Window panes become thicker at the bottom and thinner at the top over time, as the glass flows.

I can attest to that. I have mic'd old glass that has been removed and found it around .070 thicker at the bottom.

 

[TexasNomad]

I think i'll just stick to my RP

 

[blackhat620]

Mixing Rotella T with the GM EOS is known to probuce a good used oil analysis in gas engines.

That begs the question what percentage of GM EOS to Rotella T?

Generally speaking you will see good UOA results in most gas engines when running HDEO oils, as these oils have much more robust add packs to start with.

 

[blackhat620]

I don't know what any of that means.

HDEO = Heavy Duty Engine Oil (API C-rated, think diesel)
PCEO = Passenger Car Engine Oil (API S-rated, think gas engines)
ULSD = Ultra Low Sulfer Diesel (15ppm Sulfer, required in all 2007 MY on road engines)
LSD = Low Sulfer Diesel (500ppm Sulfer, No on or off road use after 2010 except for rail road, marine and a few special applications, will be phased out completely by 2014.)

Extended OCI = Extended Oil Change Interval (exceeds OEM change intervals)

And since when does a 4Cly or air cooled engine run 20w50 that's the oil we used to put in to DE60 engines on our trucks a 4 banger couldn't hardly even crank over with that kind of oil in it.

Many OEM have required 20W-50 in 4 cylinder high RPM engines for years (MG, Austin Healy, Triumph etc), Many air cooled engines require 20W-50 (Porsche for years). Most motorcyles are wet clutch (except Ducati & BMW) and require 10W-40 or 20W-50. 20W-50 is a very common motorcyle oil because most motorcycles are air cooled, use the same oil for the gear box and clutch.

I know some motorbikes use 10w30 most of today's engines and smaller engines run weights 5W20, 5W30, 5W40, 5w20 and some of the new smaller cars are running 0W40 oil

You cannot use any of the "Energy Conserving" rated oils in a wet clutch motorcycle, as the clutch will slip. You can use 10W-30 in Ducati & BMW bikes since they are a dry clutch.

Most of the modern cars that have OEM recommended 5W-20 or 0W-20, 30 are strictly do to obtaining increased EPA mpg rating. In order to allow an EPA mpg rating when the test is done with one of these oils, this oil must be specified for use in the owners manual.

I've never seen a 4banger running 20w50 that's what Diesels run most of the time.

See above, Porsche, MG, Austin Healy, Triumph the list goes on.
You will find very few 20W-50 "C-rated" diesel engine oils produced. And those that are, are generally only rated CD or CF at best which is not suitable for diesel engines built after 1994. Modern diesel engine oils are rated CI-4 or CJ-4. Most all diesel engine oil today is either 10W-30, 15W-40 or 5W-40.
www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/pubs/upload/English_Oil_Guide.pdf

I don't know the science behind the Oils But I know all the study's I've seen over the years say Syn oil beats the hell out of "Dino" every time.

Twenty years ago yes most synthetic motor oils were far superior to dino oils, but in the last 10-15 years that has changed significantly, do to the production of Group III & III+ base stocks. Group III+ base stocks mirror Group IV PAO base stocks in almost every aspect. The Only advantage that the Group IV PAO base stocks have is a lower extreme cold pour point, the flash point is only slightly higher. Also since 1999 any oil that is made up or either Group III, IV or V base stock can be labeled synthetic.

If Dino was just as good as a full syn oil then why are so many Trucking company's changing over to syn oils in their fleets?

Yes some over the road fleets have switched to synthetic oil. But they have done a cost analysis and in the long run for there specific need it is cheaper. Over the road diesels are some of the least strenuous environments an oil can operate in. The reasons are you have a sustained speed, low rpm for hours on end and you have a large oil capacity in the crankcase. The engine oil in these applications is just not stressed very hard, so using a high quality oil, bypass oil filtration, Used Oil Analysis, periodic filter change and oil top off. The oil can be run for many miles before the additive package fails to perform its job.

I'm sorry man I can't match your knowledge of the science of these oils but every thing I've never seen or read on Dino Vs Syn, syn all ways beat the Dino hands down every time.

This was true twenty years ago, but with the advent of Group III base stocks in the last 15 years the playing field has been leveled.

And yes I've all ways ran a heavy syn in all my engines and I feel a difference in the way the engines feel if I didn't then you can bet your good name I wouldn't be using running RP in all my engines and even lawn mowers

Hey if you are comfortable with it no problem, Royal Purple makes a good product. Just an FYI heavy engine oils (50W & above) are not recommend, by most all oil manufactures, in normally aspirated water cooled gas engines that rarely if ever see Engine Oil Temps (EOT) above 225F. It is rare that a water cooled gas engine will have EOT above 220F. Thicker is not better, you want to choose an oil with the lowest viscosity that will provide the protection needed for the engine and its application.

Also in an earlier post, you stated you were running Mobil 1 20W-50 in your 460. I was not aware that Mobil 1 makes a 20W-50, they do make a 15W-50.

 

[TexasNomad]

HDEO = Heavy Duty Engine Oil (API C-rated, think diesel)
PCEO = Passenger Car Engine Oil (API S-rated, think gas engines)
ULSD = Ultra Low Sulfer Diesel (15ppm Sulfer, required in all 2007 MY on road engines)
LSD = Low Sulfer Diesel (500ppm Sulfer, No on or off road use after 2010 except for rail road, marine and a few special applications, will be phased out completely by 2014.)

Extended OCI = Extended Oil Change Interval (exceeds OEM change intervals)



Many OEM have required 20W-50 in 4 cylinder high RPM engines for years (MG, Austin Healy, Triumph etc), Many air cooled engines require 20W-50 (Porsche for years). Most motorcyles are wet clutch (except Ducati & BMW) and require 10W-40 or 20W-50. 20W-50 is a very common motorcyle oil because most motorcycles are air cooled, use the same oil for the gear box and clutch.



You cannot use any of the "Energy Conserving" rated oils in a wet clutch motorcycle, as the clutch will slip. You can use 10W-30 in Ducati & BMW bikes since they are a dry clutch.

Most of the modern cars that have OEM recommended 5W-20 or 0W-20, 30 are strictly do to obtaining increased EPA mpg rating. In order to allow an EPA mpg rating when the test is done with one of these oils, this oil must be specified for use in the owners manual.



See above, Porsche, MG, Austin Healy, Triumph the list goes on.
You will find very few 20W-50 "C-rated" diesel engine oils produced. And those that are, are generally only rated CD or CF at best which is not suitable for diesel engines built after 1994. Modern diesel engine oils are rated CI-4 or CJ-4. Most all diesel engine oil today is either 10W-30, 15W-40 or 5W-40.
www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/pubs/upload/English_Oil_Guide.pdf



Twenty years ago yes most synthetic motor oils were far superior to dino oils, but in the last 10-15 years that has changed significantly, do to the production of Group III & III+ base stocks. Group III+ base stocks mirror Group IV PAO base stocks in almost every aspect. The Only advantage that the Group IV PAO base stocks have is a lower extreme cold pour point, the flash point is only slightly higher. Also since 1999 any oil that is made up or either Group III, IV or V base stock can be labeled synthetic.



Yes some over the road fleets have switched to synthetic oil. But they have done a cost analysis and in the long run for there specific need it is cheaper. Over the road diesels are some of the least strenuous environments an oil can operate in. The reasons are you have a sustained speed, low rpm for hours on end and you have a large oil capacity in the crankcase. The engine oil in these applications is just not stressed very hard, so using a high quality oil, bypass oil filtration, Used Oil Analysis, periodic filter change and oil top off. The oil can be run for many miles before the additive package fails to perform its job.



This was true twenty years ago, but with the advent of Group III base stocks in the last 15 years the playing field has been leveled.



Hey if you are comfortable with it no problem, Royal Purple makes a good product. Just an FYI heavy engine oils (50W & above) are not recommend, by most all oil manufactures, in normally aspirated water cooled gas engines that rarely if ever see Engine Oil Temps (EOT) above 225F. It is rare that a water cooled gas engine will have EOT above 220F. Thicker is not better, you want to choose an oil with the lowest viscosity that will provide the protection needed for the engine and its application.

Also in an earlier post, you stated you were running Mobil 1 20W-50 in your 460. I was not aware that Mobil 1 makes a 20W-50, they do make a 15W-50.

Lol Aah i'm sorry man its Shell.
Thanks man I didn't know that thanks for the info

 

[blackhat620]

Lol Aah i'm sorry man its Shell.
Thanks man I didn't know that thanks for the info

If you want more oil information here are some good links.

www.noria.com/
www.noria.com/learning_center/
http://forums.noria.com/eve

www.bobistheoilguy.com/
www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

 

[Old_Paint]

I believe the original question was whether or not 20W50 would harm his engine. Umm, flatly, NOPE. I've run Castrol GTX 20W50 in my 5.0 for 154,000 miles, religiously changing every 3000 miles. In most cases, an oil change at 3000 will prevent ANY oil break-down that can actually be measured. Stretch out to 4000, or 5000, yeah, it's gonna get to be pretty nasty stuff. The key is not all the fancy additives being there or not, it's the CHANGING that maintains the life of the engine, by making sure FRESH oil is being circulated, regardless of your favorite additive.

As for 20W50 in a 4 banger, UBETCHA! Same stuff I run in my truck, I put in the air-cooled bug. That sucker gets REAL HOT. We're talking head temps of 400+ thanks to a few 'minor' modifications that have a 63HP rated engine turning out approximatly 130HP. Everything else I've ever run in it has carbonized on the valve stems and made a nasty build-up in the engine. I blew a piston (don't ask how) running the Castrol 20W50 and had nearly 10 miles to get back home with it using more oil than gasoline. Inside of the block and the heads (except the one with the blown lung) were still just as clean as the day I built the engine. It's more the temperature stability, additives, and detergents that will prolong the life of the engine, regardless of how many spark plugs it needs or how hot it gets. As for the blown piston, that had nothing to do with the oil. It had more to do with running a bit too much timing advance and running nearly 1000 RPM over redline.

Heavier oil at start-up in my 5.0 has more than once caused a little lifter rattle when the temperature was like -10, but letting it idle until the rattle went away solved that problem. Took maybe 10 seconds for it to quieten down. But, in mid summer, that same detriment is a huge plus when the oil pressure jumps up before the first cylinder fires, even on a hot engine. 154,000 miles, and NOTHING but an intake leak on that engine, I'd say 20W50 won't hurt. But make it a quality brand oil, change it regularly, WITH the filter. NEVER, but NEVER, change oil without the filter. Mind you, yes, the economy will be affected some, but not as much as you think in the 5.0. Remember, the oil and engine should get to about the same operating temperature after warm-up regardless of how cold or hot it is outside. That's what the thermostat (187 degrees) is for. There might be a little cooling on the oil due to losses through the pan, but it will be rather insignificant considering the flow rate through the engine. Currently, I get around 19-20 highway, and when there was a lot less alcohol in fuel and the truck had a lot fewer miles, I saw 22-24 on a regular basis. But, that is with the M5OD and a 3.08 rear end too.

 

[NeXtras]

Old Paint, ur getting on my nerves.. u LOVE to add your .02 when 99.9% of the time your wrong or mislead..

Running 20w50 in a v8 where u get temps at -10 is BAD.. that "rattle" you get is actually your lifters because there dry..your SUPPOSE to run thinner oils when cold because naturally, oil thickens when it is cold, thus the engine has to work harder to pump that thick oil around.. and because it takes that much longer to pump around means your engine is running dry that much longer THUS more wear...

YES you car use 20W50, my dad did on his bronco (had a 300 i6) and it ran 250k just fine