Thicker Oil?

[Skandocious]

I know it was a crude example but I'm sure you can understand the point I was trying to make. Plastic IS porous, though it may not seem like it.

 

[blackhat620]

Hmph... Not questioning the "correctness" of your statement... But by that reasoning-- couldn't I keep a jug of milk for years without fear of expiration as long as it's sealed?

Milk expires because it sours, refrigerated or not, do to the organisms in the milk. You can drink it if you want but it will taste nasty. And it will look like cottage cheese.

Believe it or not, that plastic bottle DOES have tiny pores in it. How do you think latex balloons can hold water and yet when you blow them up they're deflated within a few days?

The oil containers are not latex and they do not tie at the end after you blow them up.

You are trying to compare apples and oranges here. If your oil container has leaked, and you are uncomfortable using it because it may have lost some of its ingrediants, then put it in the lawn mower. But if the bottle is intact the oil inside will be just fine. You can shake it if you want to but the additives generally stay in suspension since they have chemical bonds that form with the base oil. In the early days of engine oil and in the early synthetic oils, there was a learning curve by the manufactures to use additives that would properly mix with the base oils and stay in suspension. Those problems have long ago been figured out. Modern oils do not seperate or expire.

Alot of the engine oil hang ups came about from the early days of automobiles, when little was known about different types of crude oils and add packs. Most early engines had poor filtration systems and the only oils available were straight weight. Depending on what part of the country you lived in each oils had a different crude oil basestock depending on the region of the oil wells. Some oils had more waxes then others resulting in poor cold weather performance. The early multi-weight oils were problematic due to inferior base stocks and limited add packs. Todays oil suffer from none of these problems.

Oil is like underwear, everyone has a personal preference. Use any modern oil that you are happy with and it will perform without any problems. Do not obsess about it as all of todays modern oils will work just fine.

 

[TexasNomad]

I really don't think it can hurt man I would shoot for it.

 

[blackhat620]

I know it was a crude example but I'm sure you can understand the point I was trying to make. Plastic IS porous, though it may not seem like it.

Yes i understand that but in whose lifetime and which plastic. Each type of plastic performs differently. I have yet to find a modern oil contianer that seeped/sweated oil. If a modern oil contiainer has oil on the outside then there is a hole in the bottle.

BTW since we are in chemistry class, glass is always a liquid and constantly moving. Window panes become thicker at the bottom and thinner at the top over time, as the glass flows.

 

[Brian_B]

The Shell Rotella 'Multigrade' is still available and has ZDDP. It is a CI-4 rated oil.
http://www.shell.com/home/Framework...html/iwgen/products/product_rotellamulti.html

Here is a link to CI-4 rated oils that still contain ZDDP
http://eolcs.api.org/FindBrandByServiceCategory.asp?ServiceCategory=CI-4

[/quote]

How did you know the CI-4 rating is for the ZDDP? Everywhere I do research..they give me a different numbers. The only consistent thing is the racing oil. I would be grateful if you can link me to somewhere that explains the ratings.

 

[blackhat620]

I usually use 10w30 for every oil change, but i found a huge crate of 20w-50 in the garage that im assuming is left over from the 'rents old 85 camery that had 2 dead cylinders and 300000miles that we filled with the thickest sludge we could find to keep it from burning through a quart a week

anything wrong with running this oil for my next change (which is 300 miles overdue )

20W-50 is a little thick for a modern V8 unless it has several hundred thousand miles on it and you are trying to keep the oil from running out past the bad seals. I wouldn't worry about jumping from a 10W-30 to a 10W-40 but 20W-50 is a big jump. You are going to get more cold start scuff with the 20W-50 especially in the winter. 20W-50 were mainly designed for 4 cylinder high reving engines, especially air cooled ones.

If it was me go buy the 5 or 6 quarts of 10W-30 your engine is designed for and give the 20W-50 to someone with an older 4 cylinder that can use it. I mean crap 5-6 quarts of oil just doesn't cost that much.

 

[blackhat620]

How did you know the CI-4 rating is for the ZDDP? Everywhere I do research..they give me a different numbers. The only consistent thing is the racing oil. I would be grateful if you can link me to somewhere that explains the ratings.

Brian you should be able to find the formulas at the API website, but i will search and see if i can get you a couple of links. ZDDP was used heavily in all HDEO oils until the CJ-4 rated oils came out. ZDDP was reduced early on in gasoline (S-rated) oils.

CH rated oil has the most ZDDP and the oil companies lowered it a little with the CI-4 oils. ZDDP was removed from all CJ-4 rated HDEO oils do to the Diesel Particulate Filters installed on all diesels starting in 2007 MY. ZDDP produces to much ash and prematurely plugs the DPF filters.

On car rated engine oils (SJ, SL SM etc) the ZDDP was removed much earlier do to catalytic converters, i believe with the SF or SG grades.
www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/English_Oil_Guide.pdf

If you go to an oil companies website and pull up the specification/msds sheet for the oil it will show the percent of ZDDP. Rotella was always known to have the highest ZDDP content of any oil. Also generally speaking the higher the TBN the higher the level of ZDDP

www.epc.shell.com/
www.cbest.chevron.com/msdsServer/controller?module=com.chevron.lubes.msds.bus.BusMSDSList&alphabetSelected=D&alphabetSearch=Y&language=EN&country=&region=NA&isLoginPage=true"

www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/pubs/upload/AppE-Rev-04-24-08.pdf


You can also get good info at Bitog
www.bobistheoilguy.com/basic_lubrication_design.htm
www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

 

[blackhat620]

Brian,

Here is the link for Delo CI-4
www.cbest.chevron.com/generated/MSDS/PDS766865.PDF

Delo CJ-4
www.cbest.chevron.com/generated/MSDS/PDS29828815.PDF

See the difference in TBN and % Zinc?

Here is the Chevron list
www.cbest.chevron.com/msdsServer/controller?module=com.chevron.lubes.msds.bus.BusPDSList

 

[Brian_B]

Awesome! I had no clue where to look for the "real information". I see the "S" something posted all over the forums. I never could figure out what each of them meant. I have some reading to do later in the week.

Thanks,
Brian

 

[blackhat620]

Awesome! I had no clue where to look for the "real information". I see the "S" something posted all over the forums. I never could figure out what each of them meant. I have some reading to do later in the week.

Thanks,
Brian

"S" = Gasoline engines, comes from "Spark" ignition

"C" = Diesel engins, comes from "Compression" ignition


C rated HDEO oils are much more robust in there add packs do to the extreme conditions put on oils in a diesel engine. Also HDEO oils have much higher shear ratings and higher detergent & cleaning properties than any PCMO

Here is another source as well
http://forums.noria.com/eve

Noria has some very good publications but some are pricey.
www.noria.com/

 

[blackhat620]

Brian,

Also go to the Virgin Oil Analysis section of the Bitog website and you can see what is in each oil tested.
www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=11&page=1

 

[TexasNomad]

Send me the oil I'll use it

 

[NeXtras]

20-50 wont kill it, my dad ran it in his bronco with the 300 in it... kept it from burning oil.. i dont recomend mixing oils though..

but if its cold in you area, i would wait til it warms up so you dont have uneeded stress on the engine..

as for longetivity.. i dont know if the oil is more suceptible to oil breakdown after sitting for so long...

 

[eco]

On car rated engine oils (SJ, SL SM etc) the ZDDP was removed much earlier do to catalytic converters, i believe with the SF or SG grades.

Newer cars don't even need ZDDP since everything that comes out these days has a roller cam. Since it's not good for the catalytic converters and the motor has no real use for it anyways, it might as well be taken out of the oil. But, what about the people with motors with flat tappet cams? Thats where 10w30 diesel oil, Royal Purple etc. come in. Or even just a GMEOS additive.

 

[godblessmud]

Send me the oil I'll use it

you pay shipping and is all yours

 

[blackhat620]

Newer cars don't even need ZDDP since everything that comes out these days has a roller cam. Since it's not good for the catalytic converters and the motor has no real use for it anyways, it might as well be taken out of the oil. But, what about the people with motors with flat tappet cams? Thats where 10w30 diesel oil, Royal Purple etc. come in. Or even just a GMEOS additive.

Hmm.. sorry if there was some confusion, I thought the reason Brian wanted to know about oils that still contained ZDDP was do to the fact he was not driving a new vehicle. As for modern engines not needing it, that is a matter of semantics, as maybe they will last just fine without it, but ZDDP is definitely beneficial in reducing engine wear no matter what type of cam is installed. As far as ZDDP ruining a catalytic converter, i have not seen a modern catalytic converter prematurely fail do to ZDDP containing oil use. That being said ZDDP can reduce the overall lifespan of the catalytic converter.

ZDDP is still in all the new CJ-4 ULSD safe rated oils by the major oil companies, they just reduced the amounts signifcantly, so the older rated oils, CI-4 with higher ZDDP levels, are better for older engines or flat tappet cams.

GM EOS is fine for break-in etc, but i am not a fan of adding oil additives to pre-formulated engine oil on a regular basis as you do not know how you are effecting the oil chemistry over the normal use cycle of the oil.

 

[TexasNomad]

So what about running it a 79 460 engine

 

[blackhat620]

So what about running it a 79 460 engine

IMO running a few bottles 20W-50 in any engine is not going to cause it detrimental damage or to lock up, unless it is really cold out, it should be okay. That being said, how many miles are on your engine? And just how much money are you going to save after you pay shipping on a few bottles of 20W-50?

20W-50 was designed for high reving 4 cylinder engines, motorcycles and sometimes used in old high mileage V8 & V6 engines that leaked & burned oil like a sieve.

 

[TexasNomad]

Well right now i'm running Mobil one 20w 50 in the 460 and RP 15W40 in my 302.. And they both run great.

 

[blackhat620]

Well right now i'm running Mobil one 20w 50 in the 460 and RP 15W40 in my 302.. And they both run great.

How many miles on the 460? Why such thick oil in the 460?