Straight-up timing set for a 400

[Twiceblown351]

No sweat



I get that with using a degree wheel...but what Doug (the original poster) and myself are trying to make simple is the fact that by using the straight up gear set will take the factory cam from a 4 deg retard to zero without getting into using a degree wheel.
So would that gear set that Doug posted not do the trick?

Ok DNFXDLI and Doug. If you take the engine apart till you can see the timing set. and its only got one slot in the crank gear. And you put the crank on TDC and it dot to dot then the cam is strait up.

Not if the crank timing gear has 3 slots one for 4 retard,one for 0 and one for 4 advance. and the crank is TDC and its in the slot for 4 retard then you can put it in the 0 slot.

Now if its a 1 slot and its dot to dot. and the cam has a 4 degree retard made in to it and you want to get rid of it you will need a timing set that has 3 slots in the crank gear and put it in the 4 degree advance slot. to get the 4 deg retard out of the cam.

But what you really need is the cam card from the cam to know if its really does have 4 deg of retard made into the cam.
Then if it does you should ask why? and if you do advance the cam 4 deg. you then should take a head off and put clay on the piston and spin the engine over with the head and valve train hooked up and see if you have the clearness to have the cam 4 deg advanced . because now the cam is going to be opening the valve 4 deg closer to when the piston come up to TDC.
And if it will a work out you will still need to do the dizz timing over and to the carb ajustments over as well.

Sorry guys Im not trying to be a jurk and im not there to see it my self. But if it runs good and has good power . but its over heats I wouldnt go down this road. I look at the Dizz timing carb and the cooling system.
does it have the right rad in it? fan? fan shroud ??

Dont know just trying to help out.


Do you know what cams in it?? if you do and tell me I might be able to fine the spec to it.

 

[DNFXDLI]

The engine is all to factory specs I believe and there shouldn't be any piston/valve issues with advancement.
It's a documented fact that Ford retarded the cams on that era of engine.

He has the shroud, good stat etc.

 

[Twiceblown351]

OK look I found the spec to the stock replacement cam to that engine in that year truck.


http://aftermarket.federalmogul.com/en-us/technical/documents/camshaft%20-%20cs667.pdf

If that the cam that in there its not retarded 4 deg.
The centerline of the cam is 110. The intake centerline is retarded 1 degree for that 110. and the exhaust is advance 1 degree from 110.

If the engine got a stock replacement cam in it, that should be it. thats what my parts book call for.
So if you still think it the cam I guess i would look at the timing set. But ifs its dot to dot and crank TDC i would let it be.

But you really do need the cam card. If worse comes to worse you could take the cam out and its part # will be scribed on the back of the cam. and from that i could find out the cam card.

 

[Twiceblown351]

Ok didn't see your post untill i was done with mine.

OK if the cam has 4 degree retarded timing made into the cam. you only way to get it out. is to buy a timing set that has the 3 key ways made in the crank gear and put in the 4 advance key way.


But not know the way the engine made and the way the cam set up . if you advance the cam 4 degrees it might now even run after you do that.

If you check it out and its in there right and dot to dot at TDC. I would really leave it be.

If the truck didnt over heat when it was new. and the engine rebuilt to stock spec. then its shouldn't over heat now. So why would it be because the cam in there 4 deg retarded?? if that the way it was stock??

 

[fatherdoug]

The engine is all to factory specs I believe and there shouldn't be any piston/valve issues with advancement.
It's a documented fact that Ford retarded the cams on that era of engine.

He has the shroud, good stat etc.

Correct, Duncan. Everything new in the cooling system.

I was told the cam was a Melling, but that is all I know. A couple of things have happened regarding the engine build since my engine was installed:

1) The rebuilder has merged with another company, and has no records regarding the build of the serial number on my motor.

2) The installer of the engine is no longer in business. The reason was a family tragedy, not poor craftsmanship.

 

[DNFXDLI]

Regarding that overheating...didn't you say that it was getting up to 220 ish without boiling over?...or was it boiling over?
That's not really a super high temperature and would be expected.

 

[fatherdoug]

Correct, no boilover. I need to get a temp gauge with a smaller range that lets me see small temp differences.

If it would stay at 220, I can live with that, IF I'm sure that's the actual temp. Matt had asked if I had driven the truck enough to see if the temp levels out at 220. I replied I didn't have the cojones to try that.

 

[DNFXDLI]

I think you should really find out first Doug....even 230 isn't bad after you are working it hard.

 

[fatherdoug]

It's off to the Internet Mall for a temp gauge!

 

[DNFXDLI]

Internet mall..... ain't that the truth!

 

[fatherdoug]

Ordered an Autometer temp gauge w/ 120 - 240 deg range. Should give me an accurate idea of what the temp REALLY is! AND it's 2 5/8" so I might be able to see it without a magnifying glass.

Thank you, everybody, for all the suggestions and help. My truck thanks you also. Guess the pain meds are kicking in!

 

[DNFXDLI]

Cool Doug, looking forward to seeing what you get for readings

 

[Twiceblown351]

I dont know I wouldn't want to see 220 230 in temp in my truck. But if its not boiling over I would guess its ok there. And if its still running ok.
About at 210 is were i would start to worry as will.

But i never trust the stock gauges all that much.
I hope i was able to help you guys out.

 

[DNFXDLI]

^^ Not continuously, but after working hard....long grade with a trailer for example and I think that was where the issue arose.

 

[Twiceblown351]

I would really try to turn the timing down down like 2 or 3 degree or turn the fuel up a jet size up one. if the carb he uses can. all carb have some way to riching it up. Or a lower thermstate. temp. It might have a 190 or a 200 temp one in it and change it to a 180 or a 160 in it. Or maybe the rad is clog up a bit.
IDK how old the Rad is. I see alot of old cars that has a rad that does not leak but cant cool as good anymore. It is very out now if it still the stock one, He could take it out and take it to a rad shop and have it cleaned out,

These are things i have seen over the years, that out would not look at unless its a cooling part.

 

[SuperCab]

I dont know I wouldn't want to see 220 230 in temp in my truck. But if its not boiling over I would guess its ok there. And if its still running ok.
About at 210 is were i would start to worry as will.

But i never trust the stock gauges all that much.
I hope i was able to help you guys out.

Why worry at 210? That's where a lot of vehicles run normally.

 

[Twiceblown351]

IDK. I know newer cars do run there all the time and i dont really worry about them there made to run at that temp the newer car that i have running at 210, But a lot of newer car dont even have a temp gauge that has # on it . most just have a green line and a red line at the top.

My 25 year old Mustang and My lighting have # on there temp gauge they run at 180 200 all the time. But there not stock anymore as well.

My PSD just sits in the middle all the time. But i dont know how hot it is there. But i dont think its at 210 . But I might me wrong.

 

[fatherdoug]

^^ Not continuously, but after working hard....long grade with a trailer for example and I think that was where the issue arose.

That's right, Duncan. If I am towing a trailer up a grade, the engine cools back down rather nicely after I get up to the top of the grade.

I would really try to turn the timing down down like 2 or 3 degree or turn the fuel up a jet size up one. if the carb he uses can. all carb have some way to riching it up. Or a lower thermstate. temp. It might have a 190 or a 200 temp one in it and change it to a 180 or a 160 in it. Or maybe the rad is clog up a bit.
IDK how old the Rad is. I see alot of old cars that has a rad that does not leak but cant cool as good anymore. It is very out now if it still the stock one, He could take it out and take it to a rad shop and have it cleaned out,

These are things i have seen over the years, that out would not look at unless its a cooling part.

What do you mean by turning the timing down? Current static timing is at 10 BTDC. Are you saying drop the timing to 7 or 8 BTDC?

The radiator was brand new when the engine was rebuilt. In fact, I went so far as to replace the extra cooling radiator with a super cooling radiator with 4" tanks and a 2 5/8" core. It is also about 5 " taller.

Why worry at 210? That's where a lot of vehicles run normally.

True, most cars show 210 in the "normal" range, which isn't quite so scary when you don't see the actual value.

 

[Twiceblown351]

LOL. I know what you mean. YOU dont really know what the temp is in a new car.

IDK. I would think that 10 deg would be way on the safe side for the timing.
This does not happen much on a stock engine but i always do check it on a new engine build when its on the stand. and make sure that the timing pointers read the right #.

only thing i could say is make it richer or check the Thermostat temp. and put a cooler one. I dont know what temp should be in it.
Ive seen a water pump that flow to much GPM make a engine run hot Because it does not let the water stay in contact with the rad long enough to transfer the heat right. No that was on a street rod. But it did happen.

Leaner is hotter. Ive see the wrong heat range plug make a engine run hotter then it should. Lack of fuel PSI could make it run lean. Bad fuel filter could do it as well. Just losing the right bit of fuel . has the right amout to run good . but just emount to lean it out to get it hot.

In the racing world we use fuel to cool the pistons so it dont melt the engine down. All engine do this for the same reson. to a point. New cars have the lean burn down pat. Old engines not so much.

EFI most of the time don't have these problems as much. the computers see it. and turn the timing down,give it more MS fuel and turns the CEL on or just dont run. Carbs engine can be harder in some ways and easer in others,

These are just thing off the top of my head that i know could make a engine run hot after the cooling system is good.

 

[fatherdoug]

OEM thermostat is a 192 deg thermostat, which I have in it. I used to swap thermostats in the truck between a 180 and 192(summer/winter), but it didn't seem to make much difference. Thermostats are Robert Shaw(when I can find them), so I am fairly confident in their ability to open/close. I do test them on the stove before installing, though.

I might have to take a look at the enrichment possibility. As far as the fuel pump psi, I have attached a low psi gauge to the outlet of the fuel pump, which is about 6 months old, and the reading was 5 psi; about where it should be.

The truck starts well, and runs well. The original intent on changing the timing set, other than a possible solution to intermittent overheating under load, was to get a few more horses and a bigger grin. If I don't like the results, I can always reinstall the original, almost new timing set.