Real or Myth?: Syn vs. Conv.

[DNFXDLI]

As stated, I don't like the MLM aspect, or any company with that MO...I've never had an issue, nor have the many people I know that use the product...and at least in our countries, we still (so far) have the option to use what we like!

 

[blackhat620]

As stated, I don't like the MLM aspect, or any company with that MO...I've never had an issue, nor have the many people I know that use the product...and at least in our countries, we still (so far) have the option to use what we like!

Duncan,

I agree we all have to choose and use what we like and fortunately we can. As far as oil related failure unless you have the time and money to do extensive testing after an engine failure (ie high end racing teams) nobody with a daily driver is going to take the time or effort to determine what caused the failure. Plus unless your vehicle is routinely pushed to the limit in extreme conditions any off the shelf oil will suffice for the normal life span of todays vehicles.

 

[DNFXDLI]

Yep...agreed 100%.

 

[mrxlh]

Ok Greg and Duncan.

Let me play devils advocate for each, it will give the readers of this thread maximum value.

Amsoil, for all the good/bad press they recieve (lets face it, either you love em' or hate em', me personally I take data for what it is and don't get too tightly wrapped in internet drama) are a very well accomplished lube blender. Business tactitcs they practice are not what I would choose if I were representing the company, however that is not the point in all of this. They refuse to pay to achieve the API testing costs, they claim that their internal testing is superior to API. Fair enough, EPA mandates that CNG (compressed natural gas) vehicle conversions meet stringent EPA test guidelines, which ammount to more or less a $300,000 bribe per engine per license. That could, note I said could be percieved as the API extorting the majors, with the Auto mfg's in their pockets for a "kickback" to get us to change oil early, ect. ect.

I know a ton of people who run it and are happy with the results. As said before, I am a data guy, nothing more, nothing less. When I personally tear down an EVO with 108,000 that has run nothing but Havoline 20W50 and Fram (yes, you read that correctly I said fram) filters and wear far less than expected minimums (sans, we robbed a bunch of parts out of it to build 3 other motors) at the end of the day, why would I pay 3 times as much for something that is not API certified? Not that if I would have torn down the same motor that used Amsoil I would have probably have come to the same conclusion. However, like I said I am a data guy, so if I can change the oil and filter every 1000 miles for $30, in leiu of changing the oil using a HD filer and HD oil every 2000 miles for $68, ya'll do the math. If I were to use Amsoil (or for sake of conversation Mobil 1, Redline, Royal Purple or Torco) and wanted to trend with OA for say $85 with filter change, and then oil sample add oil and OA costs, where would I be? I'll tell you where I would be, cutting into my drinking time/money, when I can change oil 3.5 qts and a cheap filter for under $50 and not have a care in the world.

Now apply this to any of the average people here. Most people here want to maximize their investment, which is a great approach to a vehicle, as they cost a bunch and have unreal depreciation values. If it even had a chance of voiding my warranty, I would run like heck. Typically if you do all the math and add all the costs up, synthetic for the average person is overkill and the user will never recoup the cost/benifit. You could convievably go to China-Mart and buy the cheapest super tech brand, change it at 2500 miles using the cheapest filter and have better odds of winning the lottery than having an oil system related failure.

Like I said earlier, synthetic has its place, 2 strokes with chrome or nikasil liners being my first thought. Then automatic trans, gearboxes, transfer cases, and the 6.0L and 7.3L PSD due to viscosity shear, which PAO's hold up a ton better than GP II/III do. A roller bearing motor (H-D) is the furthest thing from needing synthetic. Primary, yes, but I run straight trick shift or hot shift, no synthetic brand is better for a wet clutch. Trans, syn 80w90 all the way.

Ryan, I know your still on page 3 and have 7 web pages open trying to look all this crap up, however, you want it to last longer? Change the oil more frequently, using the cheapest API certified grade that is on the oil fill cap, (the motor clearances were designed around what is printed on the oil fill cap, deviating from the specified grade can cause consumption as well) 2500 miles on the oil, change the filter every other oil change.

 

[mrxlh]

Now for the flip side of the last post. If I were running a fleet which included oil disposal fees, monthly oil analysis using synthetics would be a no brainer.

 

[blackhat620]

Ok Greg and Duncan.

Let me play devils advocate for each, it will give the readers of this thread maximum value.

Amsoil, for all the good/bad press they recieve (lets face it, either you love em' or hate em', me personally I take data for what it is and don't get too tightly wrapped in internet drama) are a very well accomplished lube blender. Business tactitcs they practice are not what I would choose if I were representing the company, however that is not the point in all of this. They refuse to pay to achieve the API testing costs, they claim that their internal testing is superior to API. Fair enough, EPA mandates that CNG (compressed natural gas) vehicle conversions meet stringent EPA test guidelines, which ammount to more or less a $300,000 bribe per engine per license. That could, note I said could be percieved as the API extorting the majors, with the Auto mfg's in their pockets for a "kickback" to get us to change oil early, ect. ect.

I know a ton of people who run it and are happy with the results. As said before, I am a data guy, nothing more, nothing less. When I personally tear down an EVO with 108,000 that has run nothing but Havoline 20W50 and Fram (yes, you read that correctly I said fram) filters and wear far less than expected minimums (sans, we robbed a bunch of parts out of it to build 3 other motors) at the end of the day, why would I pay 3 times as much for something that is not API certified? Not that if I would have torn down the same motor that used Amsoil I would have probably have come to the same conclusion. However, like I said I am a data guy, so if I can change the oil and filter every 1000 miles for $30, in leiu of changing the oil using a HD filer and HD oil every 2000 miles for $68, ya'll do the math. If I were to use Amsoil (or for sake of conversation Mobil 1, Redline, Royal Purple or Torco) and wanted to trend with OA for say $85 with filter change, and then oil sample add oil and OA costs, where would I be? I'll tell you where I would be, cutting into my drinking time/money, when I can change oil 3.5 qts and a cheap filter for under $50 and not have a care in the world.

You and I are 100% on the same page you just said it more eloquently than I did. Fram filters another one of those urban myths that just won't die.

Now apply this to any of the average people here. Most people here want to maximize their investment, which is a great approach to a vehicle, as they cost a bunch and have unreal depreciation values. If it even had a chance of voiding my warranty, I would run like heck. Typically if you do all the math and add all the costs up, synthetic for the average person is overkill and the user will never recoup the cost/benifit. You could convievably go to China-Mart and buy the cheapest super tech brand, change it at 2500 miles using the cheapest filter and have better odds of winning the lottery than having an oil system related failure.

Exactly been preaching this for years the cost to benefits just don't add up.

Like I said earlier, synthetic has its place, 2 strokes with chrome or nikasil liners being my first thought. Then automatic trans, gearboxes, transfer cases, and the 6.0L and 7.3L PSD due to viscosity shear, which PAO's hold up a ton better than GP II/III do. A roller bearing motor (H-D) is the furthest thing from needing synthetic. Primary, yes, but I run straight trick shift or hot shift, no synthetic brand is better for a wet clutch. Trans, syn 80w90 all the way.

We are in agreement here except for the 6.0L & 7.3L as I still have not seen the cost benefit of synthetic pan out for these engines except in vehicles run in extreme conditions under max load. Race cars, motorcycles & 2-stroke synthetic definitely.

Ryan, I know your still on page 3 and have 7 web pages open trying to look all this crap up, however, you want it to last longer? Change the oil more frequently, using the cheapest API certified grade that is on the oil fill cap, (the motor clearances were designed around what is printed on the oil fill cap, deviating from the specified grade can cause consumption as well) 2500 miles on the oil, change the filter every other oil change.

Again agree with most everything with the caveat that motor clearances do not change everytime the manufacture lowers the recommened engine oil weight. The manufactures lower the recomended oil weight to gain epa fuel mileage points, the engine only has to last till the warranty runs out. Personally I will not run 5W-20 motor oil in any dd especially living in a climate were it is 110F+ for months on end. Just not much film strength in a 5W-20 at temperature. In fact many years ago I simplified my oil storage for all the vehicles & machinery around here and run HDO in everything.

Now for the flip side of the last post. If I were running a fleet which included oil disposal fees, monthly oil analysis using synthetics would be a no brainer.

I know that there are caveats when it comes to 'synthetic' but I'm speaking more at a theoretical level than I am trying to get down in the weeds. Ryan

Do we have you far enough down in the weeds now?

 

[blacksnapon]

Been reading WAAAAYYY too much technical talk here, my head hurts!

 

[O'Rattlecan]

I just had to tuck my brain back into my ear after reading this.

And unless there's a sale on synthetic, all I use is Motorcraft synthetic blend 5w-20 in the 2005 pickup.

Ryan

 

[Blue Goose]

I just had to tuck my brain back into my ear after reading this.

And unless there's a sale on synthetic, all I use is Motorcraft synthetic blend 5w-20 in the 2005 pickup.

Ryan

As a recent attendee of one of Lester's phone based re-education seminars, that Motorcraft oil is Phillips-Conoco...

 

[O'Rattlecan]

What should a plebeian like myself switch to??? Havoline as suggested???

Ryan

 

[Blue Goose]

Several years ago we had a neighbor at our lake place that owned his own oil company in Omaha, Nebraska. He asked my Dad what kind of oil he ran and Dad said Pennzoil. He nodded and gave a qualified response that it was a good oil. My Dad asked him since his oil wasn't available in the St. Louis market, what was the best oil that he could buy. He told my Dad, Phillips.

 

[O'Rattlecan]

So do I infer that the Motorcraft is just fine?

I'm not looking to save the world with the universe's best oil. Just something that will give me no bottom end worries and maybe burn a little less (if possible).

Ryan

 

[Blue Goose]

From the book of Lester, 1:3...

While Phillips Conoco is the oil company, it's made to Motorcraft specs.

Considering the above and the availability of same, it's what I use in the gassers at my address.

 

[mrxlh]

There is good reason why Ford uses Conoco-Phillips. They are the countries #2 refiner by volume. Ford pays COP really really well to not release the same licensed conoco or phillips branded products. Think Mercon SP as well as a few other specialty grades. I take that this way, COP cannot market their brand effectively enough to make money off the gamble at losing Ford as a primary customer. It also says that Fords specs for oil are pretty darn good, and COP really has no way to really make it better.

I run Havoline for a number of reasons. They use a GP III base stock and do not market it as a synthetic or semi-synthetic. Which makes it cost less. I have a few test cases of where it has been used and I was the one who tore the motor down.

The single best advice I can recommend is this. Find a brand you like and stick with it. Any API spec oil will do the job suficiently. Some brands do have add packs that can (not all do, and it might be a slight chance of occurring, but why risk it) have chemical reactions to one another and turn into asphalt inside your motor. Never change brands in the middle of a change cycle. IE if you run motorcraft 5w20 and motorcraft is not available and you need to add a quart, don't add another brand of 5w20, use whatever motorcraft is closest, even if it means adding 10w40 instead. Then change as soon as possible.

Whatever brand is most prevelant, You St. Louis guys, Phillips 66 is just about on every corner, so I know what I would be running, what is the most available, is also usually the cheapest, cost wise. For others, apply the same logic.

 

[O'Rattlecan]

The single best advice I can recommend is this. Find a brand you like and stick with it. Any API spec oil will do the job suficiently. Some brands do have add packs that can (not all do, and it might be a slight chance of occurring, but why risk it) have chemical reactions to one another and turn into asphalt inside your motor. Never change brands in the middle of a change cycle. IE if you run motorcraft 5w20 and motorcraft is not available and you need to add a quart, don't add another brand of 5w20, use whatever motorcraft is closest, even if it means adding 10w40 instead. Then change as soon as possible.

Okay, this is good advice. Thanks!

Ryan

 

[mrxlh]

Kendall, 76, 66 and Conoco are all mfg'd and marketed by ConocoPhillips. How Phillips got Kendall and 76 is another story for another day.

 

[DNFXDLI]

Now for the flip side of the last post. If I were running a fleet which included oil disposal fees, monthly oil analysis using synthetics would be a no brainer.

I have 8 vehicles all told (ok one isn't on the road yet)..one takes 13 quarts, one takes 22-23..for myself, the cost of the analysis and extended interval change pays off.
As a side note, all 3 holes on the HD run 20-50 and I noticed easier shifting and a drop of 15 degrees in engine temp when the synthetic change was done...this was recorded through the ECM software.

 

[mrxlh]

Duncan, if you had a TI in the primary and the trans it would be easily double the drop you are seeing in the engine.

 

[Fellro]

Not sure on the Amsoil if it is all sold MLM, as I know a store line that sells it...

When it comes to Pennzoil, it seems we can hardly give the synthetic away at the store. I can actually show you all the bottle types in the oil rack, that is how long some of it has been around. (10-30 synthetic) I may be drawing off of myth or old time problems, but just don't have much love for Pennzoil, which seems to be the sentiment of most of our customers, since it doesn't seem to sell well even on sale. It is one of the hardest moving oil lines we have. The surprise to me is that Delo 400 and Delvac also move slowly. Right now, Delo 400 is on sale for $10.99 a bottle, so it is moving well, but due to prior low sales, we just don't stock much of it. part of our issues that way is that we don't tend to get many diesel customers either, as we don't really cater to the diesel crowd very well.

Aside from that, I thought the Valvoline synthetic was pretty good as well, but you don't seem to agree Lester, is that correct? I know Mobil to be good, and tend to use it when I can. I generally catch it on sale typically, rather than pay the full price. Had some get clearance priced, so I am an oil change ahead... that is for the wife's car though, I don't spend the extra money for my old beaters...

 

[mrxlh]

Roger, Valvoline is just not real popular down here. That don't make it bad oil, just makes it hard to get.