Opinion

[CaFordDude]

puts mod hat on...
Ryan

First of all

second of all....well I guess I just had a first of all...

 

[Brian_B]

puts mod hat on...

Let's not get personal guys. There's a lot of good information in this thread to learn from. No need to try and make clear who's 'winning' and who's not. let the points you make and the reader be the judge.

Ryan

I suspect that was sort of directed at me.

I am not upset at all. Ford is out for ford. Ford wants to work on ford vehicles. They make things as complicated as possible so the average person cannot work on them.

What is the reason (using mine for example) that virtually every electronic system is tied into the GEM? So you have to take them to ford. Plain and simple. All the systems worked fine before they did that. What system would not function the same without it? No reason to do it, other than they wanted to and they can.

No that does not matter to those who trade vehicles all the time (3 years is the average I believe), but to those of us who are die hard ford fans (fanatics?) it certainly does. Ford is shooting themselves in the foot.

EDIT: Apparently the EDGE is selling well. Whatever that is.

Overall sales totaled 195,245, down 19 percent compared with a year ago; daily rental sales were down 57 percent and sales to individual retail customers were down 17 percent.

That is just one month from this year. I think July, but....

As far as I know GM and Chrysler are having issues too. I know GM shut down some plants recently. My cousin worked for them...as in used to.

 

[blacksnapon]

Honda, toyota, nissan, all have body control modules, rear electronic modules, powertrain control modules, which ones are you saying doesn't? I work on all of them, when they get traded in.

 

[Brian_B]

I do not know if any of them DON'T. I am saying it is just a waste of money (for the customer) along with a lot of the other "newer/better" designs.

Eveything worked fine without them a few years ago. Where is the improvement (mileage, reliability, cost, ease of repairs????) with having everything tied together in a GEM? How does that make the vehicle better for the customer? I am not talking about ford or ford repair shops...I am talking about the customer. The one who has to pay for the vehicle and pay for repairs years down the road. Newer technology is not always better.

I work with technology evey day. I teach at a technical college. Newer technology is not always an improvement or better. If anyone thinks that new is always an improvement 100% of the time...they are fooling themselves. Just because it is new (or a new way of doing something)...does not mean anything.

 

[CaFordDude]

Well Vince, to get back to your original question.

Does seeing a cab pulled, turn you off from a particular model/engine, or does it make no difference?

Yes it does appear as there are people in both camps. Some people do not care for a desgin that they think will require a lift to change the oil on. Wether or not that is true.

Then there are people like me that do NO service of their own even changing the oil and am all for it being easier for my mechanic to work on my truck.

So tell us Vince, if you know the answer. Someone name a job that is generally difficult to do. Vince can you tell us if in your experience or have you heard, is that same job being made easier by the ability to pull the cab? Is that job taking less time to complete? Is "time in the shop" being cut down. Because it would definitly be a big selling point to me if shop time was cut down.

Also money was brought up. Is there an added expense to the customer if a mechanic CHOOSES to pull the cab to work on an issue? Or is there an added expense if the mechanic HAS to pull the cab to address an issue?

 

[04Xcursion]

I know with the Ford dealer I dealt with, when they started pulling cabs on the 6.0s their time for head gasket jobs and complete engine r&rs went down dramatically. I think the engine r&rs went from 20 hours to 14-16 depending on the truck. So are there gains to be had... Absolutely. In regards to the 6.4, I really don't know, and since the service procedures are going to be written with the intent of removing the body it's going to be hard to get good numbers until people start trying to do jobs without taking the body off.

I'm not going to say that every job is going to require the body to be pulled but I know some backyard types who have pulled the bodies on the 6.0s without proper lifts and still made better time on some jobs.

Truthfully the ability to pull the bodies is not a bad thing. No you can't do it in the bush very easily, but how often do you do head gaskets or an engine swap in the bush? I've done it on heavy equipment but never on light duty stuff.

In terms of non Ford shops doing the work, any shop with a 2 post lift can do this, and nowadays 2 post lifts are pretty well standard, and truthfully not very much money if you wanted to put one in.

Now as to added expense to the customer..... Realistically most shops nowadays quote, and the customer pays flat rate times for pretty well every job. If a guy gets good at pulling cabs and can be more efficient at the jobs than the flat rate book says... Cabs are going to get pulled. Customer is going to pay the same regardless. Mechanics are going to do things that allow them to make the most money.

Just my $0.02

 

[Brian_B]

What it amounts to...

If you buy a newer ford (or any other vehicle) expect to pay someone else to do any major work it may need for its lifetime. Not a few years....lifetime. Expect the cost for repairs to go up. Even if pulling the cabs is easier/faster for the mechanic...the prices that are charged to the customer are not going down.

Oh yeah...wait until some rolls one and the cab comes loose. Wait untill somone is killed (even if it is not fords fault). Ford will be in serious lawsuits (again). It does not matter if procedure says to replace the bolts (or whatever they use now). All it takes is for one to not be torqued properly (it can and probably will happen) and ford will lose millions. People are sue happy, so wait and see.

If you are in that category...look at long term reliability before you buy.

If you ever plan on turning a wrech on your own vehicle (or have to as is my case) forget buying a newer vehicle. I wish I had not. I am finding too many horrible designs in it that can and will go wrong. The 02+ version of mine is even worse.

 

[O'Rattlecan]

I wasn't 'directing' it at anyone guys. I noticed a rising temperature in the room.

Ryan

 

[blacksnapon]

As far as pulling the cabs and cost, the cost should be less. Its not an extra expense to pull one, it takes more time if you dont. If I was to choose between getting broke down on the side of the road with a 6.0, or a 6.4, I'd take the 6.4. You can do more to them with ordinary hand tools. Years down the road, it will still be cheaper to pull the cab. As far as the risk, there is straps to tie the cab to the rack (I used them on this lift).

 

[6L PWR]

Talking about the computer modules and such in the way of what manfacturers are doing this way, I don't think it's so much the manufacurers as it is the EPA forcing them to utilize computers to control the engines to meet the requirements for polution control. That's also, in my opinion, alot of the reason that reliability is going down hill. So the ease of working on vehicle now a days, to me, is getting put down because of our government. But what isn't getting screwed up by them anyway.

 

[blacksnapon]

The computerized systems today are a must, to accomplish government mandates. There is no way they can be done without computer controls. The aftermarket industry complained a few years back about the potential costs involved in "reading" each manufacturers computer systems. The govt had each major manufacturer send representatives of each of their divisions to discuss standardizing computer diagnostics. The end result was OBD11. GM had more representatives there, so thats why the OBD11 "language" is primarily what GM had been using. If you remember that you still have an internal combustion engine, operating the same way it has for years, just being monitored, its easy to understand. Only here in the past couple of years have the computers started totally controlling the vehicles. Think of it like something is on board that is saying "hey, I know whats wrong, ask me!". What can be easier?

 

[Gunner]

Talking about the computer modules and such in the way of what manfacturers are doing this way, I don't think it's so much the manufacurers as it is the EPA forcing them to utilize computers to control the engines to meet the requirements for polution control. That's also, in my opinion, alot of the reason that reliability is going down hill. So the ease of working on vehicle now a days, to me, is getting put down because of our government. But what isn't getting screwed up by them anyway.

The 10 most feared words in the US today:"Hello, I'm from the government and I'm here to help"

Gunner

 

[Gunner]

The computerized systems today are a must, to accomplish government mandates. There is no way they can be done without computer controls. The aftermarket industry complained a few years back about the potential costs involved in "reading" each manufacturers computer systems. The govt had each major manufacturer send representatives of each of their divisions to discuss standardizing computer diagnostics. The end result was OBD11. GM had more representatives there, so thats why the OBD11 "language" is primarily what GM had been using. If you remember that you still have an internal combustion engine, operating the same way it has for years, just being monitored, its easy to understand. Only here in the past couple of years have the computers started totally controlling the vehicles. Think of it like something is on board that is saying "hey, I know whats wrong, ask me!". What can be easier?

Taking all that crap off vehicles, quit selling cars in California, and letting the good folks out there walk around for a while . THAT ought to cure 'em, boy! They're always going on about overcrowning on highways, anyway!

Gunner

 

[blackhat620]

Does seeing a cab pulled, turn you off from a particular model/engine, or does it make no difference?

If makes no difference one way or the other, have pulled the body off of many cars doing restoration or other repairs. When the guys came out with the body rotisserie a number of years back it was great. You can work on the bottom of the car from the top just by turning it on the rotisserie.

Personally i have not seen a car that was easy to access and work on since the mid 70's.

 

[blackhat620]

Just remember,Todd, by pulling the cab on a 6.0, I can have an engine out, and replacement back in and running, in 14 hours. How long did your buddy take?

 

[Brian_B]

The computerized systems today are a must, to accomplish government mandates. There is no way they can be done without computer controls. The aftermarket industry complained a few years back about the potential costs involved in "reading" each manufacturers computer systems. The govt had each major manufacturer send representatives of each of their divisions to discuss standardizing computer diagnostics. The end result was OBD11. GM had more representatives there, so thats why the OBD11 "language" is primarily what GM had been using. If you remember that you still have an internal combustion engine, operating the same way it has for years, just being monitored, its easy to understand. Only here in the past couple of years have the computers started totally controlling the vehicles. Think of it like something is on board that is saying "hey, I know whats wrong, ask me!". What can be easier?

Yes..I understand part of that for emissions. I do not understand why everything is tied into one GEM and it cannot be monitored with the OBDII code readers. The codes are supposed to tell us (the users) what area to look in. Again...ford made it so we have to take it to the dealers.

I have two code readers, neither of which will read the GEM.

I also understand that they make what sells. The explorer is ruined. They are ruining other vehicles as time goes by too. They are getting less truck based and more car like (for the soccer moms I guess).

The first gen explorers were still similar to the ranger trucks. 4.0 OHV, 5 speed, standard transmission, manual 1354 t-case, manual lock out hubs, D35 front, 8.8 rear, etc.

The second gen they went to automatics only, auto t-case, etc. Mine is even worse. 4.0 SOHC (how many chains are inside this? 3 or 4?), torsion bar front end (they break off road!!!! Will they break when we hit a big pot hole?) again-not an emission issue, 5R55E (based on the 4R55e-->A4LD [worst trans ever made]--> based on the old C3 pinto trans. It is not based on the C4/C5 or the C6. No....those were good transmissions to begin with. Instead they decided to use a "french" design.

Heck...it is supposed to be a 4X4 and it does not even have hubs to lock or unlock. Yes..I know how it work, but again it is tied into the GEM (what does that have to do with emisions?)

The 02+ explorer has IRS and the axles go through the frame. There is no dipstick on the transmission (that is not an emission issue-You said that was a jaguar design). I knew mine was the last one with a solid rear axle, but I was not aware of the other issues.

I know better after it is too late.

 

[Gunner]

Yes..I understand part of that for emissions. I do not understand why everything is tied into one GEM and it cannot be monitored with the OBDII code readers. The codes are supposed to tell us (the users) what area to look in. Again...ford made it so we have to take it to the dealers.

I have two code readers, neither of which will read the GEM.

I also understand that they make what sells. The explorer is ruined. They are ruining other vehicles as time goes by too. They are getting less truck based and more car like (for the soccer moms I guess).

The first gen explorers were still similar to the ranger trucks. 4.0 OHV, 5 speed, standard transmission, manual 1354 t-case, manual lock out hubs, D35 front, 8.8 rear, etc.

The second gen they went to automatics only, auto t-case, etc. Mine is even worse. 4.0 SOHC (how many chains are inside this? 3 or 4?), torsion bar front end (they break off road!!!! Will they break when we hit a big pot hole?) again-not an emission issue, 5R55E (based on the 4R55e-->A4LD [worst trans ever made]--> based on the old C3 pinto trans. It is not based on the C4/C5 or the C6. No....those were good transmissions to begin with. Instead they decided to use a "french" design.

Heck...it is supposed to be a 4X4 and it does not even have hubs to lock or unlock. Yes..I know how it work, but again it is tied into the GEM (what does that have to do with emisions?)

The 02+ explorer has IRS and the axles go through the frame. There is no dipstick on the transmission (that is not an emission issue-You said that was a jaguar design). I knew mine was the last one with a solid rear axle, but I was not aware of the other issues.

I know better after it is too late.

Uh, Brian, I gotta ask............What does this have to do with the cab on/cab off debate about the 08 F250? Just asking man.............

Gunner

 

[Brian_B]

It does not. I was voicing my opinion. I think taking the cab off to work on the truck is a horrible idea (I forsee lawsuits over it) and it started from there. There are a lot of things (just like removing the cab) that I think is hurting ford. Look at the sales numbers compared to the foreign cars that are selling in this country. The bottom line is where it is hurting ford (GM and Chrysler too). People are not buying american vehicles like they used to. There are reasons for it.

If eveyone wants to to stop stating my opinion, I will. Just ask....

 

[Gunner]

Well, it's not that, but I think he was just looking for an opinion about the cab removal procedure

Gunner

 

[Brian_B]

Well, it's not that, but I think he was just looking for an opinion about the cab removal procedure

Gunner

that is true. I branched out to other issues (after stating what I thought about the cab removal) to say what else I thought ford was screwing up.

The cab removal is currently only on the 6.0 and 6.4 (as far as I know), but if ford likes it...it will spread to everything else sooner or later. I am waiting for the lawsuits. Legitimate or not...I expect them to happen over it.

Fords sales are hurting. It all contributes to it.