cleaning egr valves

[blacksnapon]

Ya Know how we were supposed to clean the egr valves first?
TSB
07-21-9 6.0L - MIL ON - P0401, P0402, P0404, P1335 - LACK OF POWER OR SURGE

Publication Date: October 12, 2007

FORD: 2003-2005 Excursion
2003-2007 F-Super Duty
2004-2008 E-350, E-350, E-450, E-450


This article supersedes TSB 06-19-6 to update the Service Procedure.

ISSUE:
Some 2003-2007 F-Super Duty, 2003-2005 Excursion and 2004-2008 E-Series vehicles equipped with a 6.0L engine may exhibit one or more of the following symptoms: lack of power, surge, and malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) on with diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs) P0401, P0402, P0404, and/or P1335.

ACTION:
Follow the Service Procedure steps to correct the condition.

SERVICE PROCEDURE

Follow normal Powertrain Controls/Emissions Diagnosis (PC/ED) led diagnostics for the symptom or code identified. If normal diagnostics lead to EGR valve inspection and replacement or valve cleaning, replace it with a new EGR valve.

NOTE: NOTE: DO NOT CLEAN THE EGR VALVE.



Remove and replace the EGR valve.
Clear any DTCs and perform the key on engine off (KOEO) On Demand Self-Test to learn the new EGR closed position. Failure to due so could result in a false P0404 DTC.
Verify the repair by using IDS and running the EGR System Test.
If the root cause of the EGR valve replacement was related to coking, the cause must be corrected or the coking may reoccur. Check for TSB's related to coking and the other diesel operating systems that could contribute to coking (fuel, turbo, oil, air induction, vehicle maintenance).

PART NUMBER PART NAME
4C3Z-9F452-A EGR Valve (MY 03-04)
5C3Z-9F452-AA EGR Valve (MY 05-08)
3C3Z-9P455-AB EGR Valve Kit


WARRANTY STATUS:
Eligible Under Provisions Of New Vehicle Limited Warranty Coverage And Emissions Warranty Coverage
IMPORTANT: Warranty coverage limits/policies are not altered by a TSB. Warranty coverage limits are determined by the identified causal part.

OPERATION DESCRIPTION TIME
072109A 2004-2008 Econoline 350/450 6.0L Engine: Check Diagnostic Trouble Codes, Replace The EGR Valve, Includes Time to Clear Codes, Perform KOEO, Run The EGR System Test (Do Not Use With 6005F, 6005F1, 6005FX1, 6005F39) 3.0 Hrs.
072109A 2003-2007 Super Duty, 2003-2005 Excursion 6.0L Engine: Check Diagnostic Trouble Codes, Replace The EGR Valve, Includes Time to Clear Codes, Perform KOEO, Run The EGR System Test

 

[blackhat620]

That is just great, "If the root cause of the EGR valve replacement was related to coking, the cause must be corrected or the coking may reoccur.".......well duh

Can't slip anything by these FMC engineers.

Root cause of coking equals friggen EGR system installed in a diesel engine.

Here is my solution to fix coking of EGR valve, remove EGR system from engine, problem solved.

I feel for you Vince

 

[satcom40]

Well I cleaned mine. and then use my SCT to turn it off the only thing left is to bypass the exhust system part, maybe a plug like the one elite-dissel sales

 

[bowtiehatr]

the egr system is not really that bad blackhat. coking is where the soot is mixed with oil, or fuel, or coolant and turns to a gummy substance. i have hardly ever have a egr valve i could clean unless the egr cooler was leaking. if i have egr issues and i pull it out and its dry, a new valve goes in.

 

[6L PWR]

Yep, I just took the whole danged thing out! And yes, on the second engine too!!

 

[blackhat620]

the egr system is not really that bad blackhat. coking is where the soot is mixed with oil, or fuel, or coolant and turns to a gummy substance. i have hardly ever have a egr valve i could clean unless the egr cooler was leaking. if i have egr issues and i pull it out and its dry, a new valve goes in.

Actually on a diesel they are terrible and some of the worst motor engineering for a diesel since the emissions equipment debacle of the 70's on gas motors.

In a gasoline engine the EGR system actually improves fuel mileage, by lowering cylinder temperatures and making the combustion process more efficient.

However in a diesel engine just the opposite occurrs, the lowering of the cylinder temperature makes a diesel engine less efficient, thereby increasing fuel burned, decreasing power produced per gallon of fuel, and increasing soot emissions out the tail pipe among other emissions. The EGR valve in a diesel does lower NOx (this is the only thing the EGR valve accomplishes in a diesel). But since the EGR valve lowers fuel mpg, more fuel must be burned along and the resulting waste products emitted for each mile driven. The remedy for soot emissions is the DPF filter, which lowers fuel mpg even farther. So we continue to produce less power with the modern diesel engine while at the same time increasing the fuel burned per mile. This is backwards, poor engineering, by myopic engineers that are driven by accountants and the poorly mismanaged EPA & tree huggers.

Coking is the formation of a carbonaceos subtance (substance rich in carbon, ie high carbon:hydrogen ratio). These high molecular weight hydrocarbons are formed in the engine do to incomplete combustion, low cylinder temperatures and yes can be compounded by a leaking fuel injector etc. The only way to break long chain heavy hydrocarbon molecules in the internal combustion engine is with heat, unfortunately the lowering of cylinder combustion chamber temperature by EGR systems, only increases the production of long chain heavy molecules rich in carbon and low in hydrogen, resulting in both wet and dry coking deposits on the EGR valve and other engine components. Wet coking deposits just have a higher moisture content than dry coke deposits, but either type will cause an EGR valve to stick and fail.

 

[bowtiehatr]

well talk about beating a dead horse lol. i realize all of that blackhat, thats why i said it isnt really that bad. yes the egr valves on the gassers are great now, but how about in the 80s. they purely sucked, robbed power, plugged up passages worse than now. it will take some time to get these diesels back where they supposed to be but its the best way to do this right now.

i have seen a egr valve fail many times. i have yet to see a valve stick due to dry coking that could be cleaned and will pass on a road test.

 

[blackhat620]

IMO,

Remember EGR systems in the 70 & 80's along with the other associated poorly engineered crap, hell i lived em. EGR systems on the early no computerized, carburated engines where an accident waiting to happen. Not to mention smog pumps, and catalytic converters that where very restrictive.

With current technologies a Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) system or a NOx Absorbtion system is a much better approach. Problem with there implementation is cost and the NOx Absorbtion seems to be the most viable at this time.

EGR systems and diesel engines are a piss poor idea and were the manufactures cheap way out (or so they thought). I wonder how many EGR valves FMC has paid to replace or clean, and Dodge & GM EGR woes are in the early stages. GM has not had good luck with there EGR system either.

 

[blacksnapon]

Even though I agree with you, blackhat, on the science of what an egr does, I'll have to say, a proper operating system, will keep coking at a minimum. The egr will lower temperatures, but the iat sensor makes adjustments as well. The coking isnt caused by the egr, thats more of a symptom. Excess oil in the system, coolant in the system, or engine coolant issues, are more likely the culprit. The symptoms usually show up in the egr valve. Egr troubles are more of a harbinger of things to come.

 

[bowtiehatr]

trust me, i know i have replaced atleast 50 to 60 in a years time. i agree there is a better way to go about it. there was an article in diesel power about using urea as an additive and using urea they could even remove the cat due to is cleanliness when using urea.

 

[blackhat620]

Vince, BTH i could not agree more, EGR systems on a diesel engine are bad engineering & bad science, that unfortunately the techs and diesel owners have to live with and figure out a way to make them run properly. And yes Vince if we keep up with the same crop of engineers and accounts it will only get much worse before it gets better.

Do to the increased cost of diesel fuel, loss of MPG and complexity of diesel engines and maintenance, i see the sales of diesel engines falling in the short term as buyers shun them do to there added cost and poor fuel econemy when compared to other choices. Only will a deep hole in the manufactures pocket book from lack of sales will force them to come up with better technology to make the diesel engine both operate cleanly and efficeintly.

Urea is one good solution, along with NOx Absorbtion, just have to get the manufactures off there butts an on to better technology.

 

[blacksnapon]

I think as technology evolves, there will be better ways to come along. Right now, egr systems are kind of a stopgap.

 

[satcom40]

With drivers disabling the EGR system there not much of a Gap. Is their?

 

[blacksnapon]

With drivers disabling the EGR system there not much of a Gap. Is their?

You'd be suprised how much just doing this simple thing messes with the programming!

 

[satcom40]

With drivers running tuners that turn off the EGR system, Do these tuners adjust the programming. How bad does it messes the programming.

 

[blacksnapon]

With drivers running tuners that turn off the EGR system, Do these tuners adjust the programming. How bad does it messes the programming.

I imagine it depends a lot on the effectiveness of the program to actually disable it (do you actually know, or is it just what the programming co told you?). And weather or not the valve is still there or not (back pressure can still open the valve).

 

[blackhat620]

Best way to disable the EGR system is to block off the exhaust up-pipe connection to the EGR cooler, and have a good 6.0 custom tune writer turn off the EGR valve and reporgram the PCM for optimum performance without the EGR valve in the equation. If you are concerned about the EGR valve opening from backpressure just tack weld it shut. To eliminate the EGR system properly you really need to eliminate the exhaust flow into the EGR cooler.

 

[satcom40]

Ok what is the best way to get at the exhust/EGR cooler clamp I got a plug to install between these to pipe/under this clamp.

 

[6L PWR]

Ok what is the best way to get at the exhust/EGR cooler clamp I got a plug to install between these to pipe/under this clamp.

Pull the cab!

J/K I got to mine by pulling the inner fender well liner and turning the wheel full and squeezing in that tight spot, then I drove over to my buddies shop and made his mechanic do it, I couldn't get it.

 

[satcom40]

Well if I had a buddy that could do it I'd let him but I don't and dealer is not going to do it. So I have to. I guess I could pull the turbo. will see. If someone has a better idle I'd like to hear it. Thanks John.