Top End Rebuild/Overhaul

[Girl In Big Truck]

Well, those words, rebuild, overhaul, could be a little of both. This is actually a continuation of my previous post, http://www.fordtruckfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38756 where some issues after timing chain replacement and previous other external engine complete replacement have initiated more work. So the top end is off and the issues I have found that need replacement are as follows;

lifters – bad (clogged up, etc.)
push rods – worn (slight length variations)
valve seals – worn and broken
head gaskets – various leaks and cross contamination (mostly around rear side coolant passageway)
heads and valves – large amounts of carbon deposits
intake manifold gaskets – vacuum leaks

Cleaning has begun, need to take heads, intake manifold, and other large parts to machine shop for cleaning. Have valves, valve springs and other parts cleaned and organized. Just waiting on the funds to do this.

So just wanted to start this thread because I am sure I will have many questions along the way on this project (already allot). Will be second engine overhaul. First was a VW bug 70's model engine, but that doesn't really count and I did a half ass job at it anyway.

 

[blacksnapon]

Experience is the best teacher.

 

[Girl In Big Truck]

Question on Hydraulic Lifters:

Though I am not to this point yet, I am wondering about my options on the hydraulic lifters. They are not damaged or anything, but they were clogged with some spring to them with the push of a finger. I took them all apart and cleaned them, but the problem is getting them packed with new oil.

So what is the best decision in this process considering cost as well: get new hydraulic lifters, or is there a way that I can get the lifters I have re-packed?

 

[Girl In Big Truck]

Also considering anything else before I start putting the top end back together, primarily two things. Piston rings and rear engine seal. Rear engine seal has leak, but from what I have researched can be replaced with engine in vehicle, so either trans gets dropped or engine block comes out for that. The piston rings I am not for sure about. So far from what I have researched, I don't see any grooves, scratched or anything major. But there is very small vertical lines, and after cleaning and wiping out the cylinders, and some oil residue after turning crank several times. Pictures below, just wondering if there should be any concern about piston rings at this point.

 

[Fellro]

Rings are a lot more involved. If you do that, you have to get the cylinders honed, and likely bored. If they look like that, I don't think I would worry about them too much, unless it was blue smoking.

On the lifters, they are supposed to have some spring to them like that, That is how they pump the oil through the rods. The way to prime them back up is to submerge them in clean oil, then just pump the top disc while still in the oil. If you replace the lifters, they have to be broken in to the cam. Realistically, I generally try to just do cam and lifters together for that reason.

On the rear main, you do not need to drop the trans or pull the engine, it is a 2 piece seal, so you can remove the rear main cap and "roll" the top part into place, and the position the bottom one in the main cap.

 

[Girl In Big Truck]

Rings are a lot more involved. If you do that, you have to get the cylinders honed, and likely bored. If they look like that, I don't think I would worry about them too much, unless it was blue smoking.

On the lifters, they are supposed to have some spring to them like that, That is how they pump the oil through the rods. The way to prime them back up is to submerge them in clean oil, then just pump the top disc while still in the oil. If you replace the lifters, they have to be broken in to the cam. Realistically, I generally try to just do cam and lifters together for that reason.

On the rear main, you do not need to drop the trans or pull the engine, it is a 2 piece seal, so you can remove the rear main cap and "roll" the top part into place, and the position the bottom one in the main cap.

Thanks Fellro. No smoke at all, that is a relief, one less thing to tackle right now. And the hydraulic lifters, just wanted to get extra opinions, have heard both: must be tight, and must be springy. Just took heads and intake manifold to machine shop today to get cleaned, they said same thing about lifters, should be springy. And good to know on rear main.

 

[Fellro]

I should clarify my statement on the rear main, you don't need to pull the engine in 4wd units. The oil pan comes off nicely on the old highboy style chassis. Just raise the frame a little and the pan will pass the pumpkin. Not so much on 2wd trucks... You have to lift the engine up a bit to clear the frame on them.

 

[Girl In Big Truck]

I should clarify my statement on the rear main, you don't need to pull the engine in 4wd units. The oil pan comes off nicely on the old highboy style chassis. Just raise the frame a little and the pan will pass the pumpkin. Not so much on 2wd trucks... You have to lift the engine up a bit to clear the frame on them.

It's 2wd, and yep, already experienced the oil pan issue last January when I put a new oil pump and oil pump drive shaft in. Not fun, and no good place to position the jack.

Also, while thinking about it. Where are the engine block coolant drain plugs at on this 360 5.9L engine, I need to drain the rest before I put the heads back on. Haynes manual said on lower sides before oil pan, but I don't see them yet/ Will show up eventually I presume.

 

[Fellro]

Since the cast iron of the block extends down farther on the 360 than most engines, you need to look higher. Just above the crank typically is where you will find it ont he side, a hex head many times. You will likely have to take a wire or such to clean the crud out of the bottom of the block to get it to actually drain.

 

[Girl In Big Truck]

Heads and intake back from machine shop. Did some sanding and painting (yep, sorry, heads and intake are now hot pink).

Wondering if I should get new valves or use the old ones. Nothing too bad obvious, but a few are tighter than others to get in, not matter where I put them. Only one valve has some nicks in the surface (exhaust valve shown in third pic down), the rest are smooth.

 

[cbaker65]

Heads and intake back from machine shop. Did some sanding and painting (yep, sorry, heads and intake are now hot pink).

Wondering if I should get new valves or use the old ones. Nothing too bad obvious, but a few are tighter than others to get in, not matter where I put them. Only one valve has some nicks in the surface (exhaust valve shown in third pic down), the rest are smooth.

View attachment 3729

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View attachment 3732

Nice,You wont regret your top end rebuild!...

 

[Fellro]

Uh, you should have had them with the heads to get them seated properly... I would recommend with all the work you are doing to have a proper valve job done as well. Make sure you have the hardened seats, or you will be doing all this work all over again.

 

[cbaker65]

Uh, you should have had them with the heads to get them seated properly... I would recommend with all the work you are doing to have a proper valve job done as well. Make sure you have the hardened seats, or you will be doing all this work all over again.

I almost ask the same thing...
I always took mine in an had them do that.

 

[Girl In Big Truck]

Uh, you should have had them with the heads to get them seated properly... I would recommend with all the work you are doing to have a proper valve job done as well. Make sure you have the hardened seats, or you will be doing all this work all over again.

I am not for sure if they do that there, they just did the cleaning (probably extra, and I didn't ask). But I can check back with them. Valves and springs aren't in yet, just put them in their places. So all valve related work is next.

I have wondered about seating them myself with the permatex grinding compound, not for sure how reliable that is though.

There was no previous smoking at all (not that it matters at this point), but will check back with them on seating them.

This is a step by step process, that's why I am posting valve questions now since the next step, probably to get started next week.

 

[cbaker65]

I am not for sure if they do that there, they just did the cleaning (probably extra, and I didn't ask). But I can check back with them. Valves and springs aren't in yet, just put them in their places. So all valve related work is next.

I have wondered about seating them myself with the permatex grinding compound, not for sure how reliable that is though.

There was no previous smoking at all (not that it matters at this point), but will check back with them on seating them.

This is a step by step process, that's why I am posting valve questions now since the next step, probably to get started next week.

Thats cool,my dad I think used the compound on some of his rebuilds,
an my wife grandpa use to do his,but I think the only thing that really
matters is the sloppiness of the valve guide itself is when the heads
are actually done by a head shop.
The valve grinding helps with the valve seating,an sealing.
You should be good with that an new seals...

 

[Girl In Big Truck]

Seating valves:

So I got the grinding compound, package with course and fine. Used course first, then fine, and did the fine twice. First time by hand, then, (someone is going to beat me with a hammer for this probably.. ) I attached my drill to the valve stem and pulled a little to get a faster more consistent spin with the compound on the seats. Seemed to work well. All seems smooth, but wasn't too bad in the first place. Feels smooth, looks smooth, just wondering if anything else should look for on seats, and if the compound should be used more, or if my drill experiment should be enough. Did measurement on valve thickness as well, and all are over the 1/32 minimum thickness, all over 2/32, and consistent, so good there.

Hardened Seats?

I know I have been told twice now, and been asking around. And there seems to be allot of debate, so I am still thinking on this. I have the valve oil seals and keepers ordered, so assembly coming soon. Going to find a different shop to take the heads to so I can't get a second opinion (or first since the first machine shop had none).

Head gaskets. And head shim????

What is best head gasket to use? (probably more debates) hear copper is better, but wondering if default felpro is best. Also keep seeing the head shims pop up in searches and those are copper usually. Wondering who would use, why would use a shim, and where would it be placed if used? Head side or block side? Just curious what the shim stuff is about. Will be getting head gaskets next so though I would go ahead and pop the gasket question.

 

[dustybumpers]

Valves need to be ground on a machine.
You are lapping the valves which needs to be done by hand, using a back and forth motion and a suction cup
if you use an electric drill you will put a slot in the valve, and it will not be able to rotate
here's a movie on how too that explains it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unrds-2Pcog



Make absolutely sure to get all gribding compound off/ out of every surface. it will cause you big headache later if you don't

 

[Fellro]

The FE motors were designed for use with leaded fuels. If you run a leaded head with unleaded fuels, it will wear out the seats faster. The upgrade to hardened seats requires specialized machining. Valve grinding also should be done with proper equipment.

 

[Girl In Big Truck]

Back on it. This whole overhaul sat dormant all summer. Finally, got everything I needed and started her up today. Good. Real good. Except that I have to replace the water pump in the morning since the previous one sat on the porch for 3 months. (ran out of money, had to just stop for awhile).

Besides that, only odd issues with any questions would be a stream of oil coming from one of the valve cover bolts on each side where the oil port is. I plugged it up good, but that was just weird, the truck was literally peeing oil out around the bolt head.

So far so good despite those two things. Never heard it run that good. Actually driving it will be better. I am honestly sick of working on the truck, just want to drive it.

 

[dustybumpers]

Oil coming out there means the return hole must be plugged up, and the oil is pooling and not returning down to the oil pan.
Not that you want to hear this, but you probably need to pull the valve cover off, and run a coat hanger down through there, and clear the hole.