Smog pump bypass?

[blackhat620]

Goodmorning y'all
The smog is the biggest crap I've ever seen on an engine in 35 years!!
The smog blows fresh air in the system two positions; under 2000revs just after the cat and above 2000revs straight on the exhaustvalves IN THE OPPOSITE WAY OF THE GASSTREAM!! How stupid can that be!! Because that cold ray of air blows exxentric on the valves, they will deform..
The cold air lowers also the exhaust gastemperature and moist in the muffler will shorten life of it. My truck is just 7 years in Holland.. One can see that all the bolts and nuts are undamaged, exept those of the exhaustpipe/headers... they are worn; I had to machine new ones. It tells me that the exhaustpipes are replaced a lot.

I've blinded off the EGR as well and MPG is improved, smoother run, more power and my engine remains clean. when I bought her, a thick layer of tar was in the inletmanifolds and the valves were damaged by all the tart what was sticking on the valves.
Let it be clear; an EGR is a gov. thing , only for the environment.
without the EGR, the O2 shall always cooperate with the EEC to reach the stochiometric value of 1:14,7 gas/air.
The inert gasses from the EGR lowers your combustionspeed (actually your timing retards) lowers the combustiontemp (powerloss) and because there's a natural law that say's " to keep a body on a certain speed, a certain amount of energy is needed to maintain on that speed". In other words, when the EGR is on duty, one shall push the acceleratorpedal deeper to keep speed. when I blinded it off, the first thing what I spotted, was the the pedal stood higher at same speed.
Now, they say that the EGR takes care for a lower NOx, okay? but when it messes your combustion, more fuel goes thru the engine and a lot of unburned will leave the tailpipe.
One must not forget, that the carmanufacturers and the oilcompany sleeping in oneand the same bed!! If your car can cope the environmental demands, it's okay and if the fuelconsumption rises, it's super to them!! All Gore happy, oilbosses happy, and as an extra bonus for the aftermarket sales, more work to do for carmechanics and more parts to sell.
Cars, oil and environment is pure politic games and we, as ordinary people are the"milkcows"of the governments.

This summer I've installed a woodburner in the house and 20cubic yard of wood behind the house is waiting to get burned this winter.... Environment? To leave a tree rotting away for years seems to make more CO2 than a quick burn in a burner... the Nuon(dutch natural gas company) shall not become rich over my back. but that was offtopic!!

best regards Ton

Goodmorning
It's useless to blow cold air on hot valves.... Ruin your costly acquired combustion with gasses thru the EGR a waste of compression ratio. If you lower the compress ratio to 1:6 you get the same result; a lower combustiontemperature= worse combustion and a lot of unburned fuel out the tailpipe.

Ton

No and No.
An EGR system on a gas engine will increase fuel economy over the same engine without and EGR system. Lower fuel mixture, cylinder temperature and exhaust temperature in a gas engine is more efficient. High temperatures in a gas engine reduce power & performance, exhaust gas temperature directly limits power output in a gas engine(the reverse is true for compression ignition engines). EGR systems will not lower your compression ratio or cause unburnt fuel to run out the tail pipe.

 

[blackhat620]

... but the fact is IT was MADE to be on the engine and the engine cant run right with out it there It will be taken off in the near future but it will be done right after a engine swap IF I end up keeping her, But i'm not looking to dive in to some epic engine hack and slash job right now just wanted to know if I could safely get past with by passing it I have the money to buy a new pump just don't want to if I dont gotta.

My dad removed the smog pump on our 85 f150 and it still runs to this day I see her in Traffic every once in awhile, I wont try and sound like I have advance knowledge on how these things work and the dangers of removing them, what might last 20 years on one might last 5 miles on another maybe just luck or maybe our 85 ford was just that bad *** I dunno. Thank you for all your reply's and this weekend I have some work to do on her I think I need to go barrow my brothers garden horse, mawhaha, Im seeing double so its time to watch some cartoons and hit the ol hay.

Tex you hit the nail on the head on both counts, though I do not like the enviromentalists either, the cheapest route for you to currently take is to determine if the smog pump is bad and if so then replace it. Trying to remove or hack the system will just cause you more heartache in the long run.
Good luck

 

[fosgate3]

I know this thread is old but I wanted to affirm what was written here: My smog pump has been shot for a long time. It goes through periodic bouts of squealing till I lube it up with PB Blaster or WD40, knock it with a hammer a few times, etc. I havent had an issue with it running lean at all, or at least not that I've been able to tell. I changed the cats out recently and the pump isn't connected to them anymore. The engine runs a lot better. Now, I'm taking the next move and removing the bastard completely.

 

[LEB Ben]

I know this thread is old but I wanted to affirm what was written here: My smog pump has been shot for a long time. It goes through periodic bouts of squealing till I lube it up with PB Blaster or WD40, knock it with a hammer a few times, etc. I havent had an issue with it running lean at all, or at least not that I've been able to tell. I changed the cats out recently and the pump isn't connected to them anymore. The engine runs a lot better. Now, I'm taking the next move and removing the bastard completely.

A couple questions:

-What verifiable facts do you have that it is running better? You have a dyno print out? You have before and after gauge readings??? Or simply believing what you want to believe?

-What are you comparing 'running better' to??? The engine operating with an admittedly bad smog pump, or when the vehicle was new, in which nobody will remember how it ran 15-20 years ago anyway.

 

[Ton van der Sluijs]

hi guys;
I did remove that thing 1 1/2 years ago. My truck runs good without it.

The smogpump blows fresh air in to the exhaustpipe and... it blows a cold ray of air in the opposite direction of the exhaust gas stream , exentric on the valve head.. The hot gas in the exhaust system will cool to fast and condens in the muffler makes the muffler rust quick. With a smog on, here in the Netherlands, a truck wouldn't pass the yearly test. I've removed the pump, made a bracket for the pulley (I'm Dutch; making a bracket at home was cheaper than buying a new belt ) removed all the hoses, pipes and all the vacuumlines and the filter.. but I've blinded the Thermactor solenoids, so my computer thinks eveything is in good order! I do have more space under the hood and the sparkies on the right side are better accesible .

Ton

 

[greystreak92]

A couple questions:

-What verifiable facts do you have that it is running better? You have a dyno print out? You have before and after gauge readings??? Or simply believing what you want to believe?

-What are you comparing 'running better' to??? The engine operating with an admittedly bad smog pump, or when the vehicle was new, in which nobody will remember how it ran 15-20 years ago anyway.

Agreed. The term "running better" is entirely subjective and in no way puts any real data to confirm or refute the claim. Dyno information, emissions information, or any tangible performance criteria would support the claim. Without it, its simply an admission that an engine with a bad smog pump "feels" like its "running better" now that the bad smog pump is gone. A poorly operating component will ALWAYS detract from the performance of an engine.

I would challenge that if the Thermactor system were reinstated in its properly functioning OEM format, the engine would run "still better" than it does with the EEC-IV computer doing so much extra work trying to compensate for the missing Thermactor components.

 

[Ton van der Sluijs]

Agreed. The term "running better" is entirely subjective and in no way puts any real data to confirm or refute the claim. Dyno information, emissions information, or any tangible performance criteria would support the claim. Without it, its simply an admission that an engine with a bad smog pump "feels" like its "running better" now that the bad smog pump is gone. A poorly operating component will ALWAYS detract from the performance of an engine.

I would challenge that if the Thermactor system were reinstated in its properly functioning OEM format, the engine would run "still better" than it does with the EEC-IV computer doing so much extra work trying to compensate for the missing Thermactor components.

hi there; I do not agree, that the computer has to compensate any thing... I've blinded the EGR as well and my truck passes the yearly tests without troubles. When you remove the Thermactor, the system will run in open loop...

best regards Ton

 

[greystreak92]

In your part of the world it passes. And furthermore, every sensor and control device you "blind" causes the ECM to compensate. There is no way around this. Unless you have rewritten the software and uploaded it to the ECM, the ECM will compensate for missing information. Yes, it will run in the open loop... which is exactly where it should NOT run during periods of operation that produce higher emissions. It isn't a question of whether the ECM "decides" to compensate for missing information. It DOES when information is missing. As I have said throughout the course of this thread, you may get the engine to run and run well enough to suit your needs. However, the belief that you have succeeded in bypassing or "fooling" the system is simply incorrect. Everyone knows you can run an engine without ANY emissions control systems in place. It does NOT mean that the computer that was programmed and designed to optimize engine performance WITH these systems in place isn't making dozens of compensatory alterations to maintain an operational engine in spite of the MISSING information. And even if you can't tell, (which you can't), it IS happening and the engine WILL suffer for it over time.

 

[Ton van der Sluijs]

goodmorning.
Okay; I can agree that when the EGR don't pass hot inert gas into the inlet, the combustion temperature shall be a bit higher, but, that should mean that the engine produces more energy, thus with lesser throttle it produces more power. I think, that de exhaust temp. shall not rise to much, otherwise that should mean, that we produce more power, thus more speed. To move that truck at a certain speed, it has to produce a vast certain amount of energy.... no more, no less... how the energy is built up, shall not be so important.. I think, without the EGR the exhaust temperature shall rise at higher speeds, but for me personly , I drive never above 3000rpm and never faster as 60MPH. So, I don't no when I should ride 70 every time.
The smog is a useless equipment and outdated. The EGR dirtens your whole engine at the combustionside (I've seen mine; it was a big mess.) One must not forget, both (smog and EGR) were developed to get an actually old design engine thru the emissiontests on a cheap way without changing the engine, not more, not less..
Here in the Netherlands it's possible to pass the Co2 test with an EGR..It doesn't operate at the rpms they test it, but a smogpump destroys the testresults and every "testmaster" (I don't know an english word for it) shall advice here to remove it. The smog only dillutes what comes out of the tailpipe...It doesn't make cleaner exhaust gas..

best regards Ton

 

[blackhat620]

Agreed. The term "running better" is entirely subjective and in no way puts any real data to confirm or refute the claim. Dyno information, emissions information, or any tangible performance criteria would support the claim. Without it, its simply an admission that an engine with a bad smog pump "feels" like its "running better" now that the bad smog pump is gone. A poorly operating component will ALWAYS detract from the performance of an engine.

I would challenge that if the Thermactor system were reinstated in its properly functioning OEM format, the engine would run "still better" than it does with the EEC-IV computer doing so much extra work trying to compensate for the missing Thermactor components.

In your part of the world it passes. And furthermore, every sensor and control device you "blind" causes the ECM to compensate. There is no way around this. Unless you have rewritten the software and uploaded it to the ECM, the ECM will compensate for missing information. Yes, it will run in the open loop... which is exactly where it should NOT run during periods of operation that produce higher emissions. It isn't a question of whether the ECM "decides" to compensate for missing information. It DOES when information is missing. As I have said throughout the course of this thread, you may get the engine to run and run well enough to suit your needs. However, the belief that you have succeeded in bypassing or "fooling" the system is simply incorrect. Everyone knows you can run an engine without ANY emissions control systems in place. It does NOT mean that the computer that was programmed and designed to optimize engine performance WITH these systems in place isn't making dozens of compensatory alterations to maintain an operational engine in spite of the MISSING information. And even if you can't tell, (which you can't), it IS happening and the engine WILL suffer for it over time.

Exactly, spot on.

 

[blackhat620]

hi guys;
I did remove that thing 1 1/2 years ago. My truck runs good without it.

The smogpump blows fresh air in to the exhaustpipe and... it blows a cold ray of air in the opposite direction of the exhaust gas stream , exentric on the valve head.. The hot gas in the exhaust system will cool to fast and condens in the muffler makes the muffler rust quick. With a smog on, here in the Netherlands, a truck wouldn't pass the yearly test. I've removed the pump, made a bracket for the pulley (I'm Dutch; making a bracket at home was cheaper than buying a new belt ) removed all the hoses, pipes and all the vacuumlines and the filter.. but I've blinded the Thermactor solenoids, so my computer thinks eveything is in good order! I do have more space under the hood and the sparkies on the right side are better accesible.Ton

This is both fundamentally false and incorrect! The air pump does not have enough pressure to push air the opposite direction of the exhaust stream, nor will the air stream defeat the basic laws of physics. When the air pump is injecting air into the exhaust system the exhaust temperature rises do to the additional available oxygen initiating combustion of the unburned HC in the exhaust stream. This directly reduces the HC in the exhaust stream and is the reason Air Injection systems were installed on internal combustion engines in the first place. Bottom line air injection into the exhaust stream increases exhaust temperature, reducing condensation.

hi there; I do not agree, that the computer has to compensate any thing... I've blinded the EGR as well and my truck passes the yearly tests without troubles. When you remove the Thermactor, the system will run in open loop...best regards Ton

Again this is incorrect. The computer will always compensate when it does not get the data streams it is expecting.
Removing the Thermactor solenoid will not cause the engine to run in "open loop", the Thermactor solenoid has one job and that is to direct the air injection stream either upstream(before O2 sensor) or downstream(after O2 sensor). The engine computer primarily determines "open or closed loop" operation based on the O2 sensors and engine temperature. When the engine is cold or under WOT the computer will command "open loop" otherwise the computer runs in "closed loop" mode. All you have mangaged to do by removing your EGR & Air systems is to increase your tail pipe emissions and decrease your engines efficiency & fuel mileage.

goodmorning.
Okay; I can agree that when the EGR don't pass hot inert gas into the inlet, the combustion temperature shall be a bit higher, but, that should mean that the engine produces more energy, thus with lesser throttle it produces more power. I think, that de exhaust temp. shall not rise to much, otherwise that should mean, that we produce more power, thus more speed. To move that truck at a certain speed, it has to produce a vast certain amount of energy.... no more, no less... how the energy is built up, shall not be so important.. I think, without the EGR the exhaust temperature shall rise at higher speeds, but for me personly , I drive never above 3000rpm and never faster as 60MPH. So, I don't no when I should ride 70 every time.
The smog is a useless equipment and outdated. The EGR dirtens your whole engine at the combustionside (I've seen mine; it was a big mess.) One must not forget, both (smog and EGR) were developed to get an actually old design engine thru the emissiontests on a cheap way without changing the engine, not more, not less..
Here in the Netherlands it's possible to pass the Co2 test with an EGR..It doesn't operate at the rpms they test it, but a smogpump destroys the testresults and every "testmaster" (I don't know an english word for it) shall advice here to remove it. The smog only dillutes what comes out of the tailpipe...It doesn't make cleaner exhaust gas..
best regards Ton

This whole line of thought is completely inaccurate & incorrect. As the combustion temperatures rise density of the mixture decreases and the volumetric efficiency decreases. This is the main reason drag racers use ice baths to cool the fuel before it enters the engine & water injection. At other than WOT we want to dilute the air-fuel mixture because a leaner mixture causes an increase in thermal efficiency by increasing the work produced by the expanding gas, decreasing pumping loss and decreasing heat lost to the cylinder walls. Diluting the air-fuel mixture can be achieved by either providing excess air or by using an EGR system. The problem with providing excess air is that you produce very high NOx emissions, with an EGR system not only do you get more efficient combustion but you also reduce the NOx & HC emissions. Then by adding air injection at the Catalytic converter from the "Air Pump", having been directed by the "Thermactor" solenoid, the Catalytic converter is much more efficient at reducing CO emissions.

.... The smog only dillutes what comes out of the tailpipe...It doesn't make cleaner exhaust gas..

Dude you have got to be kidding, this has to be the most blatantly inaccurate and asinine statement i have read in a long time, it borders on pathetic.
Air injection into the exhaust stream provides the oxygen needed to burn the unburned & partially burned fuel in the exhaust before the exhaust is ejected from the tailpipe and providing additional O2 at the catalytic converter making it more efficient at converting CO, this directly reduces both HC & CO emissions.

 

[Ton van der Sluijs]

Goodmorning Mr blackhat.
At first I would like to say that my truck runs on LPG, what makes a big difference..... The way you react is an "attack of the killercat" ; this is a discussionforum, so stay polite and behave yourself, and a lot you wrote, is definetly not my idea. We could have an interesting talk about it, and I'm sure, a lot of other Ford Fanatics would have joined us in it...
Here in Europe, the first thing leasecompanies do, is blind off the EGR, from diesel engines; they do run better an no soot from the tailpipe. That the NOx is higher and the gastemp a bit... so what? Here in the Netherlands we say... "environmental? the american gov. didn't sign Kyoto!! scr.. it!!"
I wish you interesting times......

 

[greystreak92]

And Mr. Ton, Mr. Blackhat is only telling you the truth that you either do not wish to accept or simply have decided you are going to argue in spite of your obvious lack of knowledge. You have been attempting to argue this for months and you are still using incorrect and otherwise FALSE information to back up your argument. Accept the fact that you have zero working knowledge of this system. Nothing you have said on this topic is even remotely accurate. Even if the Netherlands believe you, every point you made is wrong. And as Ford Fanatics who DO know how the systems work. Those of us who are arguing this are not willing to sit back and let WRONG information be promoted as correct or even accurate. When others read this, they need to be aware that the information you are putting forth is simply incorrect. If your Ford won't pass Netherlands inspection with the Thermactor and EGR systems in place and functioning properly, then I wonder if your country requires ANY of the exhaust crud to be removed before the engine belches carcinogens and other pollutants into the atmosphere.

 

[blackhat620]

Goodmorning Mr blackhat.
At first I would like to say that my truck runs on LPG, what makes a big difference..... The way you react is an "attack of the killercat" ; this is a discussionforum, so stay polite and behave yourself, and a lot you wrote, is definetly not my idea. We could have an interesting talk about it, and I'm sure, a lot of other Ford Fanatics would have joined us in it...
Here in Europe, the first thing leasecompanies do, is blind off the EGR, from diesel engines; they do run better an no soot from the tailpipe. That the NOx is higher and the gastemp a bit... so what? Here in the Netherlands we say... "environmental? the american gov. didn't sign Kyoto!! scr.. it!!"
I wish you interesting times......

This is an automotive discussion forum based on the sharing of facts, not the spreading of inaccurate and incorrect information as you have tried to do numerous times in this thread. Furthermore, it has nothing to do with American & European differences nor the Kyoto protocal, it has everything to do with accuracy of the facts and not trying to change the laws of Physics, Thermodynamics & basic engine performance to suit your desires.

Trying to switch the conversation from a gasoline engine to a diesel or LPG fueled engine is not going to fix your inaccurate posts in this thread that is dealing with a gasoline powered truck. Yes eliminating the EGR valve on a diesel engine will lower the soot output if no DPF is present in the exhaust system. However as you stated, eliminating the EGR system and increasing the cylinder temperature will increase NOx emissions dramatically. If you study both the Kyoto protocol and the UN & European implementation of the carbon credit program you will find that NOx has 298 times greater negative impact on the climate than CO2 and is also more harmful than the soot coming from a non-DPF equipped diesel tailpipe.
In addition, removing the EGR system on a gasoline powered vehicle will negatively effect the engines performance & efficiency as a direct result of increased cylinder temperatures.
Vehicles running on LPG have the same negative impact on the envrionment as modern emission equipped gasoline & diesel engines, it is still a hydrocarbon and produces the same byproducts upon combustion. It takes 30% more LPG to go the same distance as you could on gasoline or diesel. When using LPG in a standard vehicle engine the engine will run signifigantly hotter which can lower the longevity of the engine components and the engine will produce less power & torque. LPG became popular in Europe due to the lower cost compared to gasoline or diesel fuel. That being said an LPG powered engine still falls under the same basic rules of Physics, Thermodynamics & basic engine performance.

Please try to stay on the topic of the thread at hand, if you would like to discuss or debate the emissions systems & efficiency of a diesel powered vehicle there dedicated threads on this forum for those topics and there is also a dedicated thread for political disscussions if you would like to take up that subject as well. Additionally if you would like to discuss converting a gasoline or diesel engine to run on LPG then start the topic in the appropriate thread.

 

[Ton van der Sluijs]

Well well well Mr Blackhat...
It seems to me, that you're here to argue; not to exchange technical information... A nice thing about a forum is, to exchange information an to learn from each other.... there is nothing more nicer than to learn from what one writes here... therefore I do read the technical details between your bla bla and I shall see if I can learn something from you... One should be objective; not offensive... A good, healthy discussion is good for a forum.. I do understand that Ford has built his truck at best , but it's still a fact, that the smogpump is outdated and old fashioned . About the EGR... An engine produces it's maximum power at the highest temperature the combustion can produce.. replacing oxygen for an inert gas, means reducing the usefull cubic inches to produce power... Higher exhaust temperature? I don't think so... The amount of energy to maintain speed is the always the same, so the outcome is with an EGR that one messes with the combustion. To me, a good hot exhaust system will last longer and My truck runs great on LPG.
The last thing I would like to say to you, learn to be polite on a forum; maybe someone likes to join you in a healthy talk. I will not give any reaction after this; I consider this as done.

best regards Ton

 

[greystreak92]

No one has been impolite to you. End of that story so kindly cease the lies. EVERY part of your most recent post is WRONG... there is no point in even attempting to explain how because the whole thing is just wrong. You act as though we should be discussing this because your opinion matters but the problem is that your opinion is based in complete fallacy! Again every comment you have made only proves that you have ZERO working knowledge of the systems in question. You are the one perpetuating this conversation and that is all it is. You are wrong, you won't admit it. And with EVERY comment that you add, you just prove it all over again. Tell you what... I'll stop arguing the point and yes, your ignorance and refusal to accept it has led us to what could be construed as an argument... I'll stop but rest assured that I will make it my mission to make certain that ANY and ALL inaccurate information that you insist upon putting out here is soundly denounced.

 

[CaFordDude]

Subscribed....

 

[CaFordDude]

I don't know a Smog pump from a water pump. I do however know which people I would trust getting information from and Blackhat620 is one of those folks.

His answers are well researched and well written

 

[Ton van der Sluijs]

I don't know a Smog pump from a water pump. I do however know which people I would trust getting information from and Blackhat620 is one of those folks.

His answers are well researched and well written

I do definetly think, Mr Blackhat has more knowledge about Ford than I do..That doesn't make me stupid. A good technical discussion is what I like and if I make a wrong statement, I like to hear or read that. When I bought my ford, two years ago, I knew nothing about sensor and injection operated engines... I do know enough to search and repair it. What I know about EGR, CC or smogpumps, is from the info on the forums...EGR is an interesting thing and I see that the oppinion here on this side of the ocean is different compare than in America (it seems) However, what the EGR does with an engine could be an interesting subject... I think, Mr Blackhat and his friend GReystreak are so angry about me, that they refuse to jump in this... I'm not angry at all......

best regards Ton

 

[Fellro]

There are plenty of variation on this. I have seen setups with cats and no air pump, air pumps that put the air into the exhaust manifolds, as well as pumps that put the air in at the cat. My 88 has the manifold injection, had a Chev with the no pump, and others that had the injection manifold. Pre OBD II, the computer really wasn't overly affected by emissions. The 88 has a cracked manifold and does fine, other than the exhaust in the cab and the poor mileage of an old, worn out stock 351W with high rear end gears. Still pulls 8-10 most of the time. I have seen way too many disabled emissions systems over the years to freak out over a missing smog pump. If the cat is still there, that would cause me concern, but only for the damage to the cat from not having the air mix it was designed for.