New Engine Build with Spartan Diesel

[04Xcursion]

I know some of you spend some time on that other forum and have likely seen this but if not please have a look at what I'm doing and let me know if you have any suggestions.

I've been working hard with Matt from Spartan Diesel and my fantasy engine build is now underway.

The basic goal of this project is 500+HP for 500000+ miles.

If anyone has any thoughts as to improvements or missing items please chime in. I will try to keep everyone updated as to the progress on the build.

Base engine:

Crankcase: Fully remachined- block deck; align bore; magnafluxed and cryotreated; prepped and machined for custom liners from Darton Sleeves

Crankshaft: Magnafluxed; straightened, micropolished; journals DLCed (Diamond Like Carbon coating)

Connecting rods- Hypermax Ultimax Super Strength Forged High Alloy Connecting Rods

Pistons- Fully ceramic coated, matched to bores, cut to proper compression; skirts will be dry film coated with Callico CT-3 coating.

Wrist Pins- cryotreated and DLC

Camshaft: Custom billet camshaft; Micropolished, cryo treated, journals DLCed

Entire rotating assembly to be dynamically balanced, blueprinted and assembled with Callico proprietary coated bearings.

Billet low pressure oil pump gears with a new front engine cover; DLC treated and properly clearenced to prevent wear and fatigue failures.

Rear geartrain will be properly clearenced, nitrided and DLCed to survive maximum wear.

High pressure oil pump will be upgraded to the 05/06 style V-pump.

Cylinder heads will include a mild port/polish

Heads will be anchored with ARP headstuds and sealed with true fire rings (cut to both liners and heads for maximum seal integrity).

New rocker arms, push rods, valve bridges, and lifters; all cryotreated.

Entire combustion chamber will be ceramic coated: combustion chamber face, valve faces, exhaust valve backside, and exhaust runner.

Intake runner and intake valve back will be coated with high flow PTFE antifriction.

All interior block surfaces; valve covers; windage tray; crankshaft counterweights; piston bottoms will be treated with Callico CT-5 oil shed coating; during balancing crank will be knife-edged as much as is reasonable.

Fuel and exhaust system:

205 mm^3 injectors with 0.40 mm nozzles (effectively a stage 2.5 injector ~550RWHP)

150/180 FASS fully regulated return fuel system

Turbo setup is still under development, original idea was non-VGT turbo with ceramic coated turbine housing (size to be determined during tuning). Now debating a compound turbo system.

Exhaust manifolds, and up-pipes all ceramic coated

4" Straight exhaust with ceramic coated downpipe

Extras:

AFE Stage 2 intake with Proguard7 media

Install and plumb 500L Harvard 1 micron bypass lube system.

Install and plumb diesel site coolant filter system.

Install and plumb electric oil pumps for bypass lube system and pre/post luber

Install and plumb oil line crossover and jets for rear gear train lube.

Fluidampr harmonic balancer

Evans waterless coolant

AIC or high idle mod

Water injection kit with 20 gal frame mount midship tank

Installation of electric fans.

Installation of ATS billet flex plate

Install monitoring equipment for the following parameters:

EGT- Altronics RedAlert system for 8 cylinder monitoring
Boost
Engine oil pressure x2 (one gauge for main pressure, one for piston cooling jets)
Engine oil temperature
Engine coolant temperature
Fuel pressure
Battery Voltage
Transmission oil temperature
Rear differential oil temperature
Install engine hour meter.

These will be monitored by a combination of gauges and, with luck, a custom dash made of 2 or 3 DashDaq units from Drew Technologies.

---------

Well, that's the project in a nutshell.

As always I really appreciate any thoughts or opinions.

Thanks

Jason

 

[Brian_B]

Interesting. I know nothing about diesels or performance mods.

When I go to the other site, I am in the 48-60 area. I visit the AR and MO state chapters sometimes as well.

That is how I met most (well...everyone) here.

 

[04Xcursion]

Well, this project may use some parts that were not available in the '48-'60 era but in a general sense engine building is engine building.... Some techniques just never change, other do

I'm open to whatever anyone may suggest or have to say

This is not a project I'm taking lightly, I'm trying to evaluate it from every possible angle to ensure that it meets the goal.

 

[Brian_B]

A few of the guys here are trying to edumacate me a little bit about diesels. I don't recall ever even riding in one. Unless you count an antique Mack when I was a little kid.

I have never built an enigne. Now...automatic transmissions...different story, but even that was years ago.

 

[04Xcursion]

Well diesel is a huge topic.... I've literally got books on it

If you've got questions and are interested I've been known to write exhaustive explanations on diesel related topics

Even autos have gone through some changes in the last 20 years, the advent of electronic control has made them an interesting beast, but the basic design and function hasn't changed a bit; just more clutches and gears

Although if you have a miracle cure to get the 5R110 to stand up to 800HP I'd love to hear it

 

[Brian_B]

Yeah...they have changed drastically since I was inside one. The last ones I did was an 89 AOD and an 84 C5. I grew up helping my rebuild old chevies, cadillacs, chryslers, fords, and whatever else broke in the family.

No...I have no clue about whatever transmission that is.

 

[04Xcursion]

Yes, diesel technology has changed in the last 20 years that's for sure, the old days of easy to work on mechanical engines are gone (if you don't count Detroits They were never easy to work on... Well that's probably false... I never got to work on an easy one )

5R110 is the current auto Ford puts in their diesel trucks.... It has a couple of weak links when you start putting big power to it.

 

[Brian_B]

They all have weak links...extra power or not. At least every factory one I have come across did.

It used to be you could modify them yourself. Now it is all computer controlled. My 01 explorer is like that. I have a flasher that helps, if I could afford the 93 octane.

 

[04Xcursion]

Amen to that... The programmers definitely help but eventually the mechanics give up There's only so much you can do with shift scheduling and line pressure.

And then you have to start making/buying parts. Billet shafts and drums, better friction material, modified assemblies etc etc.... It's another rabbit hole I'm afraid.

 

[Brian_B]

Mine will never be modified beyond what it is. I have too many medical bills and the 56 needs work.

 

[04Xcursion]

Well as long as it does what you need it too there's no reason to fix it, right

The 56 will be more fun to play with anyway

 

[Brian_B]

That is for sure. I am meeting some local car club members. The cruise ins and cruises are a blast.

 

[04Xcursion]

It's always fun when there's a decent group who are all have a similar mindset. It's the people who make it fun... Kind like these forums

 

[Beachbumcook]

Interesting. When I go to the other site, I am in the 48-60 area.

Wow... I didn't know we had a forum just for this age group.... dam... that's old!!

 

[Gunner]

I know some of you spend some time on that other forum and have likely seen this but if not please have a look at what I'm doing and let me know if you have any suggestions.

I've been working hard with Matt from Spartan Diesel and my fantasy engine build is now underway.

The basic goal of this project is 500+HP for 500000+ miles.

If anyone has any thoughts as to improvements or missing items please chime in. I will try to keep everyone updated as to the progress on the build.

Base engine:

Crankcase: Fully remachined- block deck; align bore; magnafluxed and cryotreated; prepped and machined for custom liners from Darton Sleeves

Crankshaft: Magnafluxed; straightened, micropolished; journals DLCed (Diamond Like Carbon coating)

Connecting rods- Hypermax Ultimax Super Strength Forged High Alloy Connecting Rods

Pistons- Fully ceramic coated, matched to bores, cut to proper compression; skirts will be dry film coated with Callico CT-3 coating.

Wrist Pins- cryotreated and DLC

Camshaft: Custom billet camshaft; Micropolished, cryo treated, journals DLCed

Entire rotating assembly to be dynamically balanced, blueprinted and assembled with Callico proprietary coated bearings.

Billet low pressure oil pump gears with a new front engine cover; DLC treated and properly clearenced to prevent wear and fatigue failures.

Rear geartrain will be properly clearenced, nitrided and DLCed to survive maximum wear.

High pressure oil pump will be upgraded to the 05/06 style V-pump.

Cylinder heads will include a mild port/polish

Heads will be anchored with ARP headstuds and sealed with true fire rings (cut to both liners and heads for maximum seal integrity).

New rocker arms, push rods, valve bridges, and lifters; all cryotreated.

Entire combustion chamber will be ceramic coated: combustion chamber face, valve faces, exhaust valve backside, and exhaust runner.

Intake runner and intake valve back will be coated with high flow PTFE antifriction.

All interior block surfaces; valve covers; windage tray; crankshaft counterweights; piston bottoms will be treated with Callico CT-5 oil shed coating; during balancing crank will be knife-edged as much as is reasonable.

Fuel and exhaust system:

205 mm^3 injectors with 0.40 mm nozzles (effectively a stage 2.5 injector ~550RWHP)

150/180 FASS fully regulated return fuel system

Turbo setup is still under development, original idea was non-VGT turbo with ceramic coated turbine housing (size to be determined during tuning). Now debating a compound turbo system.

Exhaust manifolds, and up-pipes all ceramic coated

4" Straight exhaust with ceramic coated downpipe

Extras:

AFE Stage 2 intake with Proguard7 media

Install and plumb 500L Harvard 1 micron bypass lube system.

Install and plumb diesel site coolant filter system.

Install and plumb electric oil pumps for bypass lube system and pre/post luber

Install and plumb oil line crossover and jets for rear gear train lube.

Fluidampr harmonic balancer

Evans waterless coolant

AIC or high idle mod

Water injection kit with 20 gal frame mount midship tank

Installation of electric fans.

Installation of ATS billet flex plate

Install monitoring equipment for the following parameters:

EGT- Altronics RedAlert system for 8 cylinder monitoring
Boost
Engine oil pressure x2 (one gauge for main pressure, one for piston cooling jets)
Engine oil temperature
Engine coolant temperature
Fuel pressure
Battery Voltage
Transmission oil temperature
Rear differential oil temperature
Install engine hour meter.

These will be monitored by a combination of gauges and, with luck, a custom dash made of 2 or 3 DashDaq units from Drew Technologies.

---------

Well, that's the project in a nutshell.

As always I really appreciate any thoughts or opinions.

Thanks

Jason

That truely is a monster. I'm wondering how much this is going to cost. I've never build a performance diesel engine, and wondering what you're estimateing the cost of the build.

Don't tell the missus, but the thought has crossed my mind once or twice about building a muscle car as well as my truck

Gunner

 

[04Xcursion]

Gunner:

Take a deep breath..... The engine is going to run in the 30k range

But bear in mind everything in the build is of the highest quality and the engine is essentially a detuned race motor.

I see no way to reliably get 500+RWHP for 500000 miles without going to this level.

I could make the power for a lot less, but would not be able to depend on it... Essentially I'm deferring the new vehicle cost into the engine/drivetrain of a vehicle I'm really happy with.

 

[Gunner]

Gunner:

Take a deep breath..... The engine is going to run in the 30k range

But bear in mind everything in the build is of the highest quality and the engine is essentially a detuned race motor.

I see no way to reliably get 500+RWHP for 500000 miles without going to this level.

I could make the power for a lot less, but would not be able to depend on it... Essentially I'm deferring the new vehicle cost into the engine/drivetrain of a vehicle I'm really happy with.

I think a divorce would cost me less

Think I'll have to pass on that one...........but interested in seeing your project results

Gunner

 

[6L PWR]

My thoughts:

Billet LPOP gears?? I my mind, if they ever do bind, you'll lose the crank versus the gears. That would suck. Why not look into either a wet sump or dry sump oil system? A wet sump wouldn't cost asmuch as a dry sump, but would way add in the reliability by getting rid of the stock LPOP geared system and using a belt driven oil pump.

FluidAmpr. The more reading I do on LPOP failures, the more I see a FluidAmpr was installed to. As long as you don't plan on racing it and staying within the lower RPM's (not over 3600) then I say go for it, but the belief about it causing gear failure in the LPOP is due to it's weight. It's almost 8 pounds heavier than the stock dampner.

Electric Fans. Are you planning on towing? I haven't heard of anyone that's converted to electric fans that doesn't overheat while towing more than 8K. They just don't flow as well as the stock fan believe it or not. If you're not going to be towing, then YEAH, go with them. They'll save about 30HP. just keep in mind if you go to tow, you'd better watch those temps carefully.

These are just things I can think of. I trust Matt very much, but I have my own experiences as well. Not to mention over a years worth of research reading about everyone else's blown 6.0L's as I belong to 8 different forums all with 6.0L Ford threads. There's SO much info out there.

 

[04Xcursion]

Well, for the billet LPOP gear that the intent is to clearance the gears and the case to reduce the possibility of failure, although the more reading I do I am starting to come around to your way of thinking on this issue... I do think that clearenced and coating the gears will go a long way in preventing failure. The wet sump is something that is definitely under consideration though. A dry sump is not a road I want to go down at this point, I don't need it and those funds are more efficiently spent on other areas of the project.

I am still not convinced that the Fluidampr is the direct cause of all the LPOP failures. I understand some of the weight concerns, but am I to understand that the theory is that the extra weight on the end of the crank is making it whip at high RPM? The Fluidampr has substantially better balancing than anything else in the engine. I have some questions about the failures surrounding balance and internal fits; like how many of the racing failures were the result of poor internal rotating mass balance, and what were the bearing fits in the bottom end like at the time of failure.

If the Fluidampr was installed on an engine that was never built to turn 5000rpm why does the blame get placed on the damper and not the engine construction? Also as near as I can tell all the evidence is anecdotal right now, with not much scientific method being applied to the failure mode analysis. So my mind is still open.

I'll probably race the truck occasionally, but I'll make sure the race tunes are conservative. If information comes to light that the Fluidampr can not be run safely over some rpm I will forego any racing for the efficiency benefits it will provide

The electric fans are of concern to me right now; I'm hoping the waterless coolant and water injection will help me to keep the temps in check. Worse come to worse I can always switch back if I do a couple of trips and the electric fans are not working out. The majority of this truck's life will be spent not towing, so I'm hoping I can make it work

You are absolutely right, there is a ton of info out there... The hard part is differentiating the good from the bad. I trust Matt too and he has a lot of good ideas, what I really like about him though is that he listens and keeps an open mind about his ideas... I makes him easy to work with. Between the two of us we've got more than enough ideas to make us dangerous

Thanks for the input, I really appreciate guys like you who have learned some object lessons and are willing to share their knowledge those of us who haven't (yet )

 

[6L PWR]

Well, for the billet LPOP gear that the intent is to clearance the gears and the case to reduce the possibility of failure, although the more reading I do I am starting to come around to your way of thinking on this issue... I do think that clearenced and coating the gears will go a long way in preventing failure.

I agree that the coating and clearancing will go a LONG way to helping, but I don't think that needs to be done to Billet gears. I'd still rather the gears give out first and the stock ford ones cost me $16.66. The machining will add to that, but not to the point of what Billet gears will cost.

The wet sump is something that is definitely under consideration though.

I hope Matt figures this one out for us. I think it's the way to do. Either this or I had a suggestion from another member, can't remember, might have been Fellro (forgive me if I'm wrong), that you could hook up one or even two electric oil pump via a low pressure sensor so they'd come on when pressure dropped below a set point thus protecting the engine in case of LPOP failure. I think it's a VERY viable alternative and you ought to suggest it to Matt.

A dry sump is not a road I want to go down at this point, I don't need it and those funds are more efficiently spent on other areas of the project.

This was funny, Matt suggested a dry sump system to me and said it would allow the engine to run even upside down. I said, if my 8000 pound truck is upside down, I've got WAY more issues than the damned engine! ROFLMAO

I am still not convinced that the Fluidampr is the direct cause of all the LPOP failures. I understand some of the weight concerns, but am I to understand that the theory is that the extra weight on the end of the crank is making it whip at high RPM? The Fluidampr has substantially better balancing than anything else in the engine. I have some questions about the failures surrounding balance and internal fits; like how many of the racing failures were the result of poor internal rotating mass balance, and what were the bearing fits in the bottom end like at the time of failure. If the Fluidampr was installed on an engine that was never built to turn 5000rpm why does the blame get placed on the damper and not the engine construction? Also as near as I can tell all the evidence is anecdotal right now, with not much scientific method being applied to the failure mode analysis. So my mind is still open.

From my research and thinking, the main problem with the FluidAmpr at higher RPM's is the weight. Think about the engine spinning 4200-5000 RPM's and then it shifts and drops 1400-1600 RPM's. All that extra mass has to suddenly slow down. I think that would cause a quick but sharp deflection to the end of the crank, right where those LPOP gears are.

I'll probably race the truck occasionally, but I'll make sure the race tunes are conservative. If information comes to light that the Fluidampr can not be run safely over some rpm I will forego any racing for the efficiency benefits it will provide

WUS!! ROFLMAO Trust me, once you try it, you WON'T stop. It's impossible!!

The electric fans are of concern to me right now; I'm hoping the waterless coolant and water injection will help me to keep the temps in check. Worse come to worse I can always switch back if I do a couple of trips and the electric fans are not working out. The majority of this truck's life will be spent not towing, so I'm hoping I can make it work

Water Injection cools the EGT's, NOT water temp. The fan takes the heat circulating air through the radiator. Until they develop some higher flowing electrics, I'm staying with the stock fan. Once it gets warm, it even takes the stock fan a while to get it back down.

what I really like about him though is that he listens and keeps an open mind about his ideas... I makes him easy to work with. Between the two of us we've got more than enough ideas to make us dangerous

OMG!! If I win the lottery or Publisher's Clearing House, I've already told him I'm bringing him my truck and a suitcase full of money cause we're goin to town!! I SO want to be the first 6.0L to hit the 1000HP on #2 only!! All it takes is money and my freakin' wife won't let me sell the house and live with my parents!

Thanks for the input, I really appreciate guys like you who have learned some object lessons and are willing to share their knowledge those of us who haven't (yet )

No problem. I only want to see the 6.0L live up to it's true potential. Even if it's not mine.