1978 starting problems (starter)

[TonyCollins]

Hello I have a 78 4x4 with a 400 automatic. I bought the truck half way thru a restoration. Well i starting getting the motor back together wasnt completely tore down just a few things. Anyway i got it all hooked up and tried to start it and get nothing happened not even a grunt just a whine from voltage regulator. So put new solenoid and still nothing. So check starter and it was bad. So put new starter on and it shorted it out to as soon as i turned key didny even attempt to turn over. So unhooked alternator and voltage regulator and still shorted another starter out. Hopefully somebody has some ideas i am totally lost on it. Thanks in advance

 

[dustybumpers]

You have to be carefull where the starter wire bolts to the starter. If youTurn it it to the wrong direction when you fasten it down it can hit the case of the starter and short when you turn the key


Did you turn the motor over by hand, using the bolt in the balancer? it could be locked up.

 

[TonyCollins]

Thanks for the quick reply. I checked the wire real good and it isn't locked up. I am completely stumped. The truck ran like new before it was tore down. I would think if something was shorting it would throw fire somewhere or at least make some noise. Sure wish I could get this thing going.

(By the way this is a one owner truck with supposedly 46,000 original miles.

 

[SuperCab]

If you take your jumper cables and test the starter on the bench, does it still work?

 

[TonyCollins]

Does before I hook them up to the truck. But not after even took 2 of them to parts store and they kicked breakers on their machine.

 

[DNFXDLI]

Have you turned the crank by hand?

 

[Alvin in AZ]

But not after even took 2 of them to parts store and they kicked breakers on their machine.

Huh? :/

Alvin in AZ

 

[TonyCollins]

Huh? :/

Alvin in AZ

I took 2 of the starters to the parts store to be tested they hooked them up and it flipped the breaker on the machine they test them on. It was in refrence to being asked if the starters fired when hooked to a hot battery.

 

[Alvin in AZ]

I took 2 of the starters to the parts store to be tested they hooked them up
and it flipped the breaker on the machine they test them on. It was in refrence
to being asked if the starters fired when hooked to a hot battery.

Ok, kinda fiNgured that, then what happened?

Alvin in AZ

 

[TonyCollins]

Have you turned the crank by hand?

Sure did it all seems to be fine.

Thanks again guys for all the replys and advice I am going to go over all of it again tomorrow. Good Lord willing

 

[TonyCollins]

Ok, kinda fiNgured that, then what happened?

Alvin in AZ

Nothing after shorting out 3 starters i havent put another on yet until I tty to get the short figured out. Just keeps making starters short out. No grunt, whine or nothimg just humming from voltage regulator. Nothing even arcs just turn switch and kills starter. Hope that helps . Thanks

 

[Alvin in AZ]

Nothing after shorting out 3 starters i havent put another on yet until I try to
get the {problem} figured out.

Just keeps making starters short out. No grunt, whine or nothing just humming
from voltage regulator. Nothing even arcs just turn switch and kills starter.

What voltage was being applied to those starters?
Got a meter?
Got a friend with a meter?

So the starters are being burned up (shorted out inside) after you try using them?

Alvin in AZ

 

[Alvin in AZ]

They wouldn't let me edit it so I just copied what I'd spent over an hour
composing and posted it to a new post. LOL

<pretend there's one of those cute little emoticons here with it's tongue sticking out>

Nothing after shorting out 3 starters i havent put another on yet until I try to
get the {problem} figured out.

Just keeps making starters short out. No grunt, whine or nothing just humming
from voltage regulator. Nothing even arcs just turn switch and kills starter.

What voltage was being applied to those starters?
Got a meter?
Got a friend with a meter?

----------------------

Been reading about burned-up starters and the answers are all over the place.

One that keeps coming up is a bad starter relay (we got a relay, we ain't got a
starter solenoid) or bad starter solenoid that has sticking contacts in it like our
starter-relays can do too. Same result.

Read many accounts of bad brand new starter relays... one right after another!
...until they gave up and bought one from NAPA.

-------------------------

But one that's seldom mentioned is and I'm leaning toward for you, T.C. is...

Something's wrong with the starter drive and how it engages the ring gear...
...just plain ol' crooked, not the right starter, not the right tooth count, engine
plate left out, starter not shimmed up right etc that can cause the starter to
just plain ol' jam up and set there and fry itself lickity split.

One thing -for-sure- about starters is they're set up from the get-go to carry
enough current through them to burn themselves right up! LOL They're only
supposed to have a certain "running/operating current" going through them for
just a little while, let alone while it's jammed up tight and carrying... what?

...double that current?

...triple maybe? :/

Anyway, that's where I'd look, with what I've read here, T.C..

Alvin in AZ

 

[TonyCollins]

Alvin, Thanks buddy I will get on to checking all that this weekend. I sure do appreciate all the help. I will update what I find out hopefully this rain lays today and I can get started working on it.
thanks Tony

Another quick question doesn't have anything to do with discussion. But this truck doesn't have lock out hubs i have owned and been around these old trucks a long time this is first I have seen (noticed anyway) is this something that was rare or pretty usual and i just missed it?

 

[Alvin in AZ]

Alvin, Thanks buddy I will get on to checking all that this weekend. I sure do
appreciate all the help. I will update what I find out hopefully this rain lays
today and I can get started working on it.
thanks Tony

Cool. Updates are the best part of any thread. No kidding. We can guess and
guess but when the facts come back is when we all learn something. xD

...this truck doesn't have lock out hubs i have owned and been around these
old trucks a long time this is first I have seen (noticed anyway) is this something
that was rare or pretty usual and i just missed it?

Cool question to which I have no idea, because I'm not a 4wd guy.
(dune buggy, dirt bike and much later "4-wheeler" guy here

Start a new thread on this, it'll be cool to read.

"full time four wheel drive" ?? Heard of it. Heard it hurt gas mileage.

Hey here's another thread for you... advancing the cam timing on that 400!
Get you better gas mileage and power both as-if the engine came from the
60's. No kidding, if it ain't been done already, do it!

BTDT with my '75 F150's 360FE back in the mid 90's and it still has... more
power and gets better gas mileage and starts and runs and idles better than
ever did from brand new and it now has ~100k on the rebuild where we put
a 252/252 Comp cam in it. I was 21 when I special ordered that truck.

---------------------------

Here's my saved response for "no start" threads, it's actually worked a few
times. xD That is, a few guys -actually used a voltmeter- and found their
trouble. LOL I'm batting ~3 out of a ~hundred so far and only in the last
~6 months has that "3" happened. First got on the internet (talking crap)
in about '93. xD

==================================

I don't usually look at these "no start" threads because the OP won't use
a meter to find the trouble. At best he'll swap parts even after I post this
"how to". :/

-----------------------------------------------------

Here's my way of doing it...

An analog voltmeter is all you need.

Trick is to first try it on a vehicle that's working to see it in action.

1) Don't mess with any wires etc, get the analog voltmeter out first-thing.
That's so you won't "clear-up the trouble on yourself" and then won't know
what needs fixing. BTDT Do yourself a big favor and let the voltmeter do
its job before you go monkeying with it.

2) Read the battery voltage by digging the voltmeter's leads into the
battery's terminals (not the clamps. Should read ~12 volts.

3) Have a helper try to start the vehicle. I've done this by myself, so don't
tell me you can't too. But a helper's cool, you can teach the helper how
to troubleshoot a starting/charging system using only an analog voltmeter
while you're at it.

4) Watch to see how far-below the original 12v reading the needle goes...
-> Drops to ~11 volts and starter sounds good and engine starts fine? --> 5
-> Less that 10 volts and sounds sluggish or won't even turn over? --> 4a
-> Don't move much, stays at ~12 volts and won't turn over? --> 4b

5) After it starts, does the voltage stay at ~12 volts or rise to ~13 volts?
If it just sits there at the original voltage then you've got charging circuit
trouble, could be the alternator or the voltage regulator or both.

4a) Typically you've got a good connection through the whole starter's
circuit and got a low or weak battery. How old is the battery?

4b) Typically you got an "open circuit" (as opposed to a "short circuit")
and the analog meter will find it for you if you-let-it-lead-you to it.

In big steps or little steps, move the leads closer to the "load" (the starter)
until you get virtually-zero-volts (while the helper is trying to start the
engine). Use little steps as you narrow in on exactly where the open-circuit
is.

-----------------------------------------------------

Alvin in AZ
ps- Starter relay terminal designations...
S = -to- "Starter relay coil" -from- the ignition switch
I = -to- "Ignition coil" -from- positive battery inside the starter relay

===============================

TC, on yours I would suspect the battery's voltage to have been drawn way
down like the battery was half dead.

AKA: Butthead in AZ

 

[DNFXDLI]

If it doesn't have lock out hubs, then it is full time 4wd...does your transfer case lever have things like 4hi...4hi loc?

 

[primetime]

Make sure ALL of the grounds are intact. Body to engine, body to frame, frame to battery. I have heard of vehicles having excessive bad starter issues and a new ground from the starter to the battery fixes it. Just a thought.

 

[Alvin in AZ]

Make sure ALL of the grounds are intact. Body to engine, body to frame, frame
to battery. I have heard of vehicles having excessive bad starter issues and a
new ground from the starter to the battery fixes it. Just a thought.

x2

But your trusty analog-voltmeter will find a problem like that lickity-split.

Alvin in AZ

 

[TonyCollins]

Sorry for taking so long to give an update. I got the starter issue fixed turns over like a champ now. Got to put a new fuel pump in hopefully later this evening. It set so long fuel pump went bad I reckon. Anyway the starter issue ended up being a bad ground where solenoid bolts to fender. Told a close friend of the family what it was doing that was his immediate response to check so I did and pow turned right over. Made perfect sense once I heard it out loud. But anyway hopefully in day or to it will be up and back on road hopefully getting a new paint job in next week or so. Thanks again for everybody's help I greatly appreciate it

 

[Mil1ion]