windsor cleavland??????

[RocketScience]

I had already brought up Ford's non-use of BB/SB. (post #8)


You are correct on the distributor.


Canted valve heads came out for both motors (335/385series ) around the same time......so I don't believe that to be a valid reason (unless you mean Chevy's canted valve BB head which came out before both Ford heads.

Serious..................wasn't there a production version of a 302C also? Thought I heard of one once.


BTW, Packers 29 - Saints 51

 

[DOHCmarauder]

There are a few other internal similarities I ran into when I rebuilt my mustang that are alot like the FE engines.
I will have to dig into my books to find them.
It's been many years since I had mine apart.
it is a 73 mustang 351c

That's the first time I've ever heard that!!!

FE had a deep skirted block......not so the C (or W)

The C uses an intergrated timing cover.

Totally different bore spacing.

FE has a goofy intake manifold (HUGE) that over laps the heads.

C uses a dry intake manifold.

Completely different oiling systems.

I am very curious to what would be similar between an FE and a 335.

 

[DOHCmarauder]

Serious..................wasn't there a production version of a 302C also? Thought I heard of one once.


BTW, Packers 29 - Saints 51

Australia has a 302C...........we called 'em the BOSS 302.


I think my kid's and mine flag football team could have beaten the Packers tonight..........they looked very much like the Seachickens.

 

[dragogt]

The Boss 302 was either a Destroked 351C or Cleavland heads on a 302W depends on who you ask.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Boss_302_engine

The Boss 302 engine is a high-performance small-block V8 from Ford Motor Company. It was a hybrid of small-block Ford V8s - It used the block of the small Ford Windsor engine and the heads of the larger Ford Cleveland engine. It was created for the SCCA's Trans-Am road racing series, and was fitted to the Boss 302 Mustang.

http://www.boss302.com/story.htm

Actually, something was already being done even before the 1968 Trans-Am race season started. Ford was in the process of developing a new 351 cubic inch engine known as the "Cleveland" for 1970. It was so named because it would be produced at the Cleveland engine plant instead of the Windsor engine plant. Someone in Engine Engineering came up with the idea of putting the Cleveland heads on the Tunnel-Port block. It was tested and the results were good enough to continue development of the new 302 cubic engine as the Tunnel-Port started show its shortcomings.\

1968 Tunnel Port 302, street version prototype Overhead valve pushrod engines face a design dilema: the pushrods compete for space with the intake ports. Conventional design places the pushrods along side a rectangular shaped intake port. These ports also steer around the pushrods. The Ford tunnel-port design runs the pushrod through the center of a round intake port, within a thinwall tube. The ports flow better due to their round shape and straight path. This design was first used on the 427, and then in 1968 on a special 302.
These round intake ports are 3.8 sq. in. in area at the intake manifold face. The Tunnel Port 302 cylinder heads feature 2.12" intake and 1.54" exhaust valves. By comparison, the 289 HiPerf engine used 1.78" intake and 1.44" exhaust. These large valves completely fill the wedge shaped combustion chamber. The exhaust ports are larger than normal 289/302 heads. Two 540 cfm Holleys sit on a high-rise aluminum manifold. Autolite 4300s were used on the street version.

The race version featured domed pistons, yielding a compression ratio of 12.5:1, a solid lifter camshaft and forged steel crankshaft. The nodular cast iron rocker arms are shaft mounted, similar to those used on the Y-block V-8. Lubrication for these shaft mounted rockers required a special block with revised oil passages. Also used was a special road racing style 8-quart oil pan. Some used an early transistorized ignition.

http://phystutor.tripod.com/stang/engines/tp302.html ... http://phystutor.tripod.com/stang/engines/engines.html

The street version used flat-top piston, for 10.5:1 compression, and a hydraulic camshaft. Notice from the picture, the engine was complete with thermactor emissions control hardware, 289 HiPerf style exhaust manifolds, and a thermostatic clutch radiator fan. 1,000 engines were required for 1968 Trans Am homologation. As used in Trans Am competition the engines produced approximately 420 bhp with an 8,500 rpm redline.


http://www.mustangandfords.com/featuredvehicles/mufp_0604_1968_ford_mustang/index.html

Mustangs had successfully campaigned in SCCA B-production and Group II Sedan racing in '65-'67, when the 289 High Performance V-8 made its peak torque in the 6,000-7,500 rpm range. When it gave way to the 302-inch Tunnel Port in 1968, popular belief was the 302 would perform even better thanks to the unusual heads. Although the 302 Tunnel Port made more power than the 289 High Performance, it did so at 8,500 rpm, and the unusually high revs were their undoing. The 302 Tunnel Port V-8s were blowing up, scattering all over racetracks from coast to coast. The following year, Ford looked to the new 351 Cleveland head, ultimately leading to the Boss 302 and making the 302 Tunnel Port a short-lived, unpleasant chapter in Ford racing history

 

[DOHCmarauder]

The Boss 302 was either a Destroked 351C or Cleavland heads on a 302W depends on who you ask.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Boss_302_engine

The Boss 302 engine is a high-performance small-block V8 from Ford Motor Company. It was a hybrid of small-block Ford V8s - It used the block of the small Ford Windsor engine and the heads of the larger Ford Cleveland engine. It was created for the SCCA's Trans-Am road racing series, and was fitted to the Boss 302 Mustang.

http://www.boss302.com/story.htm

Actually, something was already being done even before the 1968 Trans-Am race season started. Ford was in the process of developing a new 351 cubic inch engine known as the "Cleveland" for 1970. It was so named because it would be produced at the Cleveland engine plant instead of the Windsor engine plant. Someone in Engine Engineering came up with the idea of putting the Cleveland heads on the Tunnel-Port block. It was tested and the results were good enough to continue development of the new 302 cubic engine as the Tunnel-Port started show its shortcomings.\

1968 Tunnel Port 302, street version prototype Overhead valve pushrod engines face a design dilema: the pushrods compete for space with the intake ports. Conventional design places the pushrods along side a rectangular shaped intake port. These ports also steer around the pushrods. The Ford tunnel-port design runs the pushrod through the center of a round intake port, within a thinwall tube. The ports flow better due to their round shape and straight path. This design was first used on the 427, and then in 1968 on a special 302.
These round intake ports are 3.8 sq. in. in area at the intake manifold face. The Tunnel Port 302 cylinder heads feature 2.12" intake and 1.54" exhaust valves. By comparison, the 289 HiPerf engine used 1.78" intake and 1.44" exhaust. These large valves completely fill the wedge shaped combustion chamber. The exhaust ports are larger than normal 289/302 heads. Two 540 cfm Holleys sit on a high-rise aluminum manifold. Autolite 4300s were used on the street version.

The race version featured domed pistons, yielding a compression ratio of 12.5:1, a solid lifter camshaft and forged steel crankshaft. The nodular cast iron rocker arms are shaft mounted, similar to those used on the Y-block V-8. Lubrication for these shaft mounted rockers required a special block with revised oil passages. Also used was a special road racing style 8-quart oil pan. Some used an early transistorized ignition.

http://phystutor.tripod.com/stang/engines/tp302.html ... http://phystutor.tripod.com/stang/engines/engines.html

The street version used flat-top piston, for 10.5:1 compression, and a hydraulic camshaft. Notice from the picture, the engine was complete with thermactor emissions control hardware, 289 HiPerf style exhaust manifolds, and a thermostatic clutch radiator fan. 1,000 engines were required for 1968 Trans Am homologation. As used in Trans Am competition the engines produced approximately 420 bhp with an 8,500 rpm redline.


http://www.mustangandfords.com/featuredvehicles/mufp_0604_1968_ford_mustang/index.html

Mustangs had successfully campaigned in SCCA B-production and Group II Sedan racing in '65-'67, when the 289 High Performance V-8 made its peak torque in the 6,000-7,500 rpm range. When it gave way to the 302-inch Tunnel Port in 1968, popular belief was the 302 would perform even better thanks to the unusual heads. Although the 302 Tunnel Port made more power than the 289 High Performance, it did so at 8,500 rpm, and the unusually high revs were their undoing. The 302 Tunnel Port V-8s were blowing up, scattering all over racetracks from coast to coast. The following year, Ford looked to the new 351 Cleveland head, ultimately leading to the Boss 302 and making the 302 Tunnel Port a short-lived, unpleasant chapter in Ford racing history

ANYBODY that thinks a BOSS 302 is a destroked Cleveland is a total fool.

Not only is the block COMPLETELY different, the main journal is a 1/2" smaller on a 302


Also, even though it is now accepted to call the 221/255/260/289/302/351W "small" blocks "Windsors"; it wasn't even an issue until the 351C was introduced. In other words, only a 351W should be called a Windsor.


While a BOSS 302 is "based" on a 302 block (1"+- shorter deck than a 351W or C) it is unique in that it uses 4 bolt mains and screw in freeze plugs.

There has been no other 302/351W that used 4 bolt mains in a production car(yes, Ford now sells the 4 bolt "race" blocks through FRPP)

 

[393clevor]

A 400 is basically a stroked 351M.....notice there is no "M" for the 400.....some people like the 400 for its ability to make some decent low end torque when built correctly.

But from the factory, the 351M/400 were during some of Ford's darker days concerning performance.

the 400 cam first, the 351M is a de-stroked 400.

you cam make a 400 out of a 351M just by using the 400 crank and pistons

I'm building a 400 for a mud truck and I'm finding out that this motor will perform with little work. All under 5500rpms

so far I have some 1974 351C heads (way better exhaust port than the 1975 351m/400 heads and the chambers are a little smaller) Ported with 2.07In 1.65Ex SS one piece valves
Cam kit 204 214 @50
performer intake, 600 Holley
some (TMI/KB2347-30) flat top pistons 9.5 to1
duraspark distributor, with a re-curve kit
1 3/4 long tube headers
oil mods for better oiling


should make more than 400lbs torque...