windsor cleavland??????

[daddyjake707]

what is the difference between a 351 windsor and a 351 cleavland?? same size motor isnt it? are they both from the same 289/302 block just bored out with maybe different top end?

 

[nobodyspecial]

They are from two different engine families. The 335 series and the Windsor series. I dont know much about the differences, I will leave that up to someone more knowledgeable.

 

[smokey]

deck height is a big difference,along with many other things.
they do share the same bolt patterns.

 

[flareside_thunder]

Alotta folks say the cleveland is a bigblock ford with smallblock tranny boltpattern...they can be made (and already are) into mean little engines.

 

[conanski]

Copied from Wikipedia...

"The 351 Cleveland was introduced in 1969 as Ford's new performance car engine and was built through the end of the 1974 model year. It incorporated elements learned on the 385 big-block series and the Boss 302, particularly the poly-angle combustion chambers with canted valves and the thin-wall casting technology.

Both a 4V (4-barrel carburetor) performance version and a 2V (2-barrel carburetor) basic version were built, both with 2 valves per cylinder. The latter had a different cylinder head with smaller valves, smaller ports, and open combustion chambers to suit its intended applications.

Only the Q-code 351 "Cobra Jet" (1971-1974), R-code "Boss" 351 (1971), and R-code 351 "HO" (1972) versions have 4-bolt mains although all 335 series engines (351C/351M/400) have space for them even in 2-bolt main form. The main difference between 351C/351M/400 engines is connecting rod length and main bearing size. The 351M/400 engines have the largest bearing size and the tallest deck height while sharing the 429/460 bell housing pattern. The 351C engine has a medium main bearing size and shorter connecting rods than the 351W and the 351M/400 while retaining the SBF engine mount locations and bell housing pattern. The 400 engine has the longest stroke of any SBF or 335 series engine.

All of the 351C and 351M/400 engines differ from the 302/351W by having an integrated timing cover casting in the front of the block to which the radiator hose connects."

 

[daddyjake707]

well all right then thats clear as mud. haha just kidding thanks for the answers ill have to do some more research before i decide what moter i want for my project 55 f100

 

[conanski]

The readers digest version on the 351C is that finding a good one will be both difficult and expensive. The 351W is as common as dirt, rebuild kits are cheap, and you have the choice of going carbed or EFI using either factory components or aftermarket parts. The stock shortblock is more than capable of supporting 400hp with nothing but ARP rod bolts, and the block itself will support upwards of 700hp with a forged rotating assembly.

 

[DOHCmarauder]

Alotta folks say the cleveland is a bigblock ford with smallblock tranny boltpattern...they can be made (and already are) into mean little engines.

"Alotta" people are idiots.

IF Ford designated their motors as big or small blocks (they don't BTW, even though it's been commonly accepted) The C's and W's share bore spacing meaning ALL heads are interchangable (with minor water passage mods)

So if you had a 221 head from 196X, it would fit a 351C block.

The 351C head also fits on any "small block" from 221, 255, 260, 289, 302,.

If a 302/351W is a small block, so is a C. (or 351/400M for that matter)

 

[RocketScience]

"Alotta" people are idiots....

Excuse me???

Was there another cris-cross of fresh water and sewer by the Las Vegas PUD we didn't hear about???


The 221ci Ford from an early model '34 Sedan. Clearly a V8, and CLEARLY a "SMALL BLOCK."

The 460ci Ford from a later model '77 F250. Clearly a V8. and CLEARLY a "BIG BLOCK."

SHEEESH!

 

[TexasNomad]

Excuse me???

Was there another cris-cross of fresh water and sewer by the Las Vegas PUD we didn't hear about???
The 221ci Ford from an early model '34 Sedan. Clearly a V8, and CLEARLY a "SMALL BLOCK."

The 460ci Ford from a later model '77 F250. Clearly a V8. and CLEARLY a "BIG BLOCK."
SHEEESH!

 

[TexasNomad]

Cool well I learned some thing today.
So what does the M stand for then.
There was a 351M for sale in the Nickel while back...

 

[Brian_B]

Ford never actually designated them "big blocks" or "small blocks" in any of their literature. I have no problem with anyone calling them that (I do it too), but ford never actually did.

I had a 351C in an old 72 torino. It was a good running engine. I would imagine they are a little hard to find now though.

 

[DOHCmarauder]

Excuse me???

Was there another cris-cross of fresh water and sewer by the Las Vegas PUD we didn't hear about???


The 221ci Ford from an early model '34 Sedan. Clearly a V8, and CLEARLY a "SMALL BLOCK."

I sure hope you're not doing what I THINK you're doing to that poor "small" block!!!

Of course it would have to be a "small" block for you to violate it....:flipoff:

 

[DOHCmarauder]

Cool well I learned some thing today.
So what does the M stand for then.
There was a 351M for sale in the Nickel while back...

NOBODY knows what "M" stands for.

Some will say "Midland"

Some will say "Modified"

Some will even say "Mistake"

But there is no OFFICIAL documentation to what it actually means.



A 400 is basically a stroked 351M.....notice there is no "M" for the 400.....some people like the 400 for its ability to make some decent low end torque when built correctly.

But from the factory, the 351M/400 were during some of Ford's darker days concerning performance.

 

[RocketScience]

I sure hope you're not doing what I THINK you're doing to that poor "small" block!!!

Of course it would have to be a "small" block for you to violate it....:flipoff:

That's it?......I waited-up 'til 11:50 for that???

Dude, you disappoint me. I'm going to bed -got Mat's hockey game tomorrow morn. I'll give you a call mañana...

 

[smokey]

I always heard the M called "Modified" or "Michigan"
The big block vs small block debate for the 351c is understood it has characteristic of both but more of the small block traits.

 

[DOHCmarauder]

I always heard the M called "Modified" or "Michigan"
The big block vs small block debate for the 351c is understood it has characteristic of both but more of the small block traits.

351C uses the same bore spacing as the "small block"

351C uses same motor mounts as the "small block"

351C uses the same bell housing bolt pattern as the "small block"


Please list what "big block" traits it has.


[this is one of those posts that have a 'tone" to them....I swear to you it's not intended. Just curious as to why some would consider it a BB]

 

[smokey]

Ford never really used BB or SB names
I will have to dig in to some of my old engine manuals and post what they say.
Here is a few I remember reading.
one thing is Cleveland engine use a distributor that will physically interchange with those of the 429/460 big block.
It uses a big block style heads.

 

[DOHCmarauder]

Ford never really used BB or SB names
I will have to dig in to some of my old engine manuals and post what they say.
Here is a few I remember reading.
one thing is Cleveland engine use a distributor that will physically interchange with those of the 429/460 big block.
It uses a big block style heads.

I had already brought up Ford's non-use of BB/SB. (post #8)


You are correct on the distributor.


Canted valve heads came out for both motors (335/385series ) around the same time......so I don't believe that to be a valid reason (unless you mean Chevy's canted valve BB head which came out before both Ford heads.

 

[smokey]

There are a few other internal similarities I ran into when I rebuilt my mustang that are alot like the FE engines.
I will have to dig into my books to find them.
It's been many years since I had mine apart.
it is a 73 mustang 351c