New Engine Build with Spartan Diesel

[04Xcursion]

I agree that the coating and clearancing will go a LONG way to helping, but I don't think that needs to be done to Billet gears. I'd still rather the gears give out first and the stock ford ones cost me $16.66. The machining will add to that, but not to the point of what Billet gears will cost.

That is a reasonable outlook, I think I''m gonna have a discussion with Matt on that issue. Maybe we'll revise the plan.

I hope Matt figures this one out for us. I think it's the way to do. Either this or I had a suggestion from another member, can't remember, might have been Fellro (forgive me if I'm wrong), that you could hook up one or even two electric oil pump via a low pressure sensor so they'd come on when pressure dropped below a set point thus protecting the engine in case of LPOP failure. I think it's a VERY viable alternative and you ought to suggest it to Matt.

LOL Actually it was my suggestion... And I'll definitely be doing that.

This was funny, Matt suggested a dry sump system to me and said it would allow the engine to run even upside down. I said, if my 8000 pound truck is upside down, I've got WAY more issues than the damned engine! ROFLMAO

Dry sumps are awesome, it was more a money/time/development issue that has led me away from the dry sump idea. They are inhibitively expensive.

From my research and thinking, the main problem with the FluidAmpr at higher RPM's is the weight. Think about the engine spinning 4200-5000 RPM's and then it shifts and drops 1400-1600 RPM's. All that extra mass has to suddenly slow down. I think that would cause a quick but sharp deflection to the end of the crank, right where those LPOP gears are.

Ahhhh... the light turns on now.... I had not though of the massive deceleration condition. I will do some more research. But you are suggesting that that the LPOP fails right after a shift not right before?

WUS!! ROFLMAO Trust me, once you try it, you WON'T stop. It's impossible!!

Yeah... That's what I'm scared of and then I'll be hooked

Water Injection cools the EGT's, NOT water temp. The fan takes the heat circulating air through the radiator. Until they develop some higher flowing electrics, I'm staying with the stock fan. Once it gets warm, it even takes the stock fan a while to get it back down.

I understand what you're saying, but what heats the coolant? If I can keep my EGTs down in the 800-900 range (which is not too for outside normal driving temps) I should be able to keep my engine temps reasonable. It will hopefully just be a matter of keeping the water injection aggressive enough to keep the temps down. It'll be an intersting experiment nonetheless.

OMG!! If I win the lottery or Publisher's Clearing House, I've already told him I'm bringing him my truck and a suitcase full of money cause we're goin to town!! I SO want to be the first 6.0L to hit the 1000HP on #2 only!! All it takes is money and my freakin' wife won't let me sell the house and live with my parents!

I would love to see that too, I don't think the 1000+HP will be streetable though.... The injectors/nozzles would be so huge it'd very hard to run any way but flat out... LOL

No problem. I only want to see the 6.0L live up to it's true potential. Even if it's not mine.

Lots of people don't think that way though

 

[6L PWR]

LOL Actually it was my suggestion... And I'll definitely be doing that.

Oh thit! Sorry. ROFL

Dry sumps are awesome, it was more a money/time/development issue that has led me away from the dry sump idea. They are inhibitively expensive.

My mechanic buddy has one on his drag car and insists that he can create one for $2000-2500. I told him to look into it as if that's the case, I might just like to see a 6.0L running upside down.

Ahhhh... the light turns on now.... I had not though of the massive deceleration condition. I will do some more research. But you are suggesting that that the LPOP fails right after a shift not right before?

That's when I believe my truly started to go. It shifted and then began making that weird gear meshing gear noise like a blower makes.

Yeah... That's what I'm scared of and then I'll be hooked

You have NO idea. ROFL

I understand what you're saying, but what heats the coolant? If I can keep my EGTs down in the 800-900 range (which is not too for outside normal driving temps) I should be able to keep my engine temps reasonable. It will hopefully just be a matter of keeping the water injection aggressive enough to keep the temps down. It'll be an intersting experiment nonetheless.

I had both Water/Meth and NOS (both coolers) running full steam and it only dropped the EGT's by 200-300*. I understand what you're saying about the EGT's heating, but there's alot of friction in there as well. The EGT is Exhaust Gas Temperature. That's gases right after combustion that then exit through the valves. It's a short trip for them. I still think you'll have issues, but Eric at Innovative Diesel told me he's running the 7.3L Electrics set-up from Flexalite and as long as he doesn't pull more than 8K, he's within range. Over that he said you can forget it.

I would love to see that too, I don't think the 1000+HP will be streetable though.... The injectors/nozzles would be so huge it'd very hard to run any way but flat out... LOL

Uh, who cares and that'd be too friggin' awesome!! ROFLMAO

Lots of people don't think that way though

Try to keep in mind that most of the guys souping these up own shops and sell the aftermarket stuff to do this, therefore, it's money to them. It's not money to me, it's kewel!

 

[04Xcursion]

My mechanic buddy has one on his drag car and insists that he can create one for $2000-2500. I told him to look into it as if that's the case, I might just like to see a 6.0L running upside down.

I think the 2000-2500 number is pretty conservative. By the time you redo the front cover, install and partition all the scavenge ports and crankcase dividers set up the pump, oil cooler etc..... 2500 goes away pretty quick although my parts estimates may be way out to lunch...

On a different note, I've been crunching things out with Matt and it looks strongly like we'll be going with an external wet sump kit and mounting a pump in the place of the second alternator.

That's when I believe my truly started to go. It shifted and then began making that weird gear meshing gear noise like a blower makes.

That's making a lot of sense to me now. I'll let you know what I find out.

You have NO idea. ROFL

I know and that's what scares me so much

I had both Water/Meth and NOS (both coolers) running full steam and it only dropped the EGT's by 200-300*. I understand what you're saying about the EGT's heating, but there's alot of friction in there as well. The EGT is Exhaust Gas Temperature. That's gases right after combustion that then exit through the valves. It's a short trip for them. I still think you'll have issues, but Eric at Innovative Diesel told me he's running the 7.3L Electrics set-up from Flexalite and as long as he doesn't pull more than 8K, he's within range. Over that he said you can forget it.

Still friction is not what develops the majority of heat in an engine, it's the heat transfer from the combustion chamber into the coolant. If you were seeing 200*-300* reduction in EGTs the amounts to a substantial reduction in the amount of heat being transfered into the coolant.

I'm still going to give the electrics a go, the fan set I'm looking are supposedly flows 9000 cfm, which isn't that far off the mechanical's 12000cfm. I'm also looking at upgrading the rad if it's a possiblity. I also have a geographic advantage, it's just not as hot here I'm hoping the reduced ambient temps will also help me out... Regardless, the mechanical fan will definitely come home in the back of the truck with me

Uh, who cares and that'd be too friggin' awesome!! ROFLMAO

Yeah 1000hp is totally awesome streetable or not

Try to keep in mind that most of the guys souping these up own shops and sell the aftermarket stuff to do this, therefore, it's money to them. It's not money to me, it's kewel!

Hey... It's money to me too... Just not quite the same somehow though ROFLMAO..... But the kewel factor is what makes it fun (well and the go FAST factor too)

 

[Blue Goose]

I read on another site where a guy was doing some preliminary engineering to replace the HEUI system with a common rail. It might be nothing more than internet chit chat but, to me it's an interesting concept...

 

[6L PWR]

I think the 2000-2500 number is pretty conservative. By the time you redo the front cover, install and partition all the scavenge ports and crankcase dividers set up the pump, oil cooler etc..... 2500 goes away pretty quick although my parts estimates may be way out to lunch...

True, but my buddy does things on the cheap labor side. He just wants to see it go fast too.

On a different note, I've been crunching things out with Matt and it looks strongly like we'll be going with an external wet sump kit and mounting a pump in the place of the second alternator.

I still think this is the best way to go.

I know and that's what scares me so much

Until you feel it and get that stupid "HOLY CRAP" smile stuck on your face.

I'm still going to give the electrics a go, the fan set I'm looking are supposedly flows 9000 cfm, which isn't that far off the mechanical's 12000cfm. I'm also looking at upgrading the rad if it's a possiblity. I also have a geographic advantage, it's just not as hot here I'm hoping the reduced ambient temps will also help me out... Regardless, the mechanical fan will definitely come home in the back of the truck with me

Keep in mind that electrics are rated without the radiator or anything else in front of them to restrict that flow. They don't flow that much once they've got all that crap to pull air through in front of them, BUT, being in Canada, which I didn't even notice, is WAY beneficial. I'd do it too!!

Hey... It's money to me too... Just not quite the same somehow though ROFLMAO..... But the kewel factor is what makes it fun (well and the go FAST factor too)

True, but that's why talking about what YOU'RE doing is so much fun for me. It ain't mmy money!! ROFLMAO

 

[6L PWR]

I read on another site where a guy was doing some preliminary engineering to replace the HEUI system with a common rail. It might be nothing more than internet chit chat but, to me it's an interesting concept...

WAY to much to change over mechanically, then you have to change over the computer. I don't see that as happening. Would be cheaper to retrofit a common rail.

 

[04Xcursion]

I read on another site where a guy was doing some preliminary engineering to replace the HEUI system with a common rail. It might be nothing more than internet chit chat but, to me it's an interesting concept...

It's already been done by International.... It's the 6.4

In all honesty, for the time, effort and engineering involved in doing it it'd easier and cheaper to by a 6.4

 

[04Xcursion]

True, but my buddy does things on the cheap labor side. He just wants to see it go fast too.

I hope you can get it done I've never seen an upside down drag race before lmao

I still think this is the best way to go.

I totally agree. The whole point of my project is to find and fix any of weak links in the 6.0 in terms of reliability and the LPOP is definitely one of those

Until you feel it and get that stupid "HOLY CRAP" smile stuck on your face.

I can hardly wait

Keep in mind that electrics are rated without the radiator or anything else in front of them to restrict that flow. They don't flow that much once they've got all that crap to pull air through in front of them, BUT, being in Canada, which I didn't even notice, is WAY beneficial. I'd do it too!!

The mechanical fan is rated the same way though... Also this truck is never going to be a dedicated tow rig so I'll take the efficiency gains and hope our cooler temps will keep me on the up and up... If it turns out that I can't pull a TT effectively; the tried and true mechanical will go back on for holidays

True, but that's why talking about what YOU'RE doing is so much fun for me. It ain't mmy money!! ROFLMAO

HEHEHE I know.... I get a lot of pleasure talking about it too. These projects are just A WHOLE LOT OF FUN!!!!!!

 

[mrxlh]

The lpop gears/fluid damper failure, may have some merit. However, with a correctly line bored bedplate, and properly balanced engine, truely straightened crank running a zero web deflection, the dampner will not snap the crank, nor its mass slowing down cause a bind on the gears. I would be willing to bet the gear lash is insufficient in stock form adding up all the other "stacked" or geomtrical tolerances built into the motor. Todd, you pushed the "stock tolerances to the limit, and now know what they are. Your fix to prevent this from happening should be relatively simple as far as the water/meth shut off for shift.

 

[Beachbumcook]

The lpop gears/fluid damper failure, may have some merit. However, with a correctly line bored bedplate, and properly balanced engine, truely straightened crank running a zero web deflection, the dampner will not snap the crank, nor its mass slowing down cause a bind on the gears. I would be willing to bet the gear lash is insufficient in stock form adding up all the other "stacked" or geomtrical tolerances built into the motor. Todd, you pushed the "stock tolerances to the limit, and now know what they are. Your fix to prevent this from happening should be relatively simple as far as the water/meth shut off for shift.

Wow... I have no idea what he stated above... but it sounds good enough that I agree with him and that I am just ditto-ing his comment.

 

[04Xcursion]

I don't expect to ever push this engine as hard as Todd did but I'm trying to build in enough safety margin that if it does get a little extra now and then I won't see any catastrophic failures

mrxlh:

The shock load should be torsional in nature, but if there is any runout in the assembly at all you are going to some kind of bending force on the end of the crank during the rapid deceleration period aren't you? And since the crank is essentially unsupported in the distance it overhangs the first journal some kind of deflection is almost unavoidable. I have not had a chance to see what the actual clearances are inside the pump but due to the failures it is definitely safe to say the clearances are not large enough to live with the amount of inaccuracy in the base engine (which gets worse as the engine wears).

One thing I don't know about the failures of the LPOP is how many occurred in in engines that had their fuel/air delivery systems built up on top of a stock bottom end versus how many were built on a blueprinted and balanced bottom end. The answer to this would go a long way in determining the actual cause of the failure.

 

[6L PWR]

One thing I don't know about the failures of the LPOP is how many occurred in in engines that had their fuel/air delivery systems built up on top of a stock bottom end versus how many were built on a blueprinted and balanced bottom end. The answer to this would go a long way in determining the actual cause of the failure.

I've only ever heard of one engine that had been balanced and blue printed, but I don't know if the LPOP ever failed in it. I haven't heard if it's ever blown or not.

 

[04Xcursion]

This whole issue is a little bit grey just due to what's being done with these engines. We're taking engines that had 245 BHP (International's original spec) and cranking 800-900 BHP out of it and expecting nothing to break. If you did the same thing to any other engine you'd completely rebuild the engine with high end race parts.

The fact that the LPOP is the first thing to fail in the chain shouldn't really be all that surprising, and in all truth it's a testament to how well designed and built this engine is. My bet would have been on the LPOP or the rear geartrain (either ripping the gear off the cam or just flat out destroying a gear). I really don't know if chasing/blaming the FluiDampr is fair given all the unknowns in the situation. The evidence is highly anecdotal at this point without any real scientific testing.

I can say this, I've spoken to FluiDampr and they are taking this issue VERY seriously. They want to be sure that their product is not the root cause of these failures.

 

[6L PWR]

This whole issue is a little bit grey just due to what's being done with these engines. We're taking engines that had 245 BHP (International's original spec) and cranking 800-900 BHP out of it and expecting nothing to break. If you did the same thing to any other engine you'd completely rebuild the engine with high end race parts.

I wouldn't say that all of us were expecting nothing to break. I've been expecting it, I was just hoping for a bit more life than I got. All in all, I know it was my fault and I'm paying for it.

I really don't know if chasing/blaming the FluiDampr is fair given all the unknowns in the situation. The evidence is highly anecdotal at this point without any real scientific testing.

I don't really think it's the Fluidampr myself. In my case, I overeved her a bit and with that kind of RPM, you'd have to expect the crank end to put a binding load on the LPOP gears leading me to think the best resolution is a Wet or Dry Sump system thus eliminating those gears. What's gonna blow after that fix? Good question, but certainly something else will give.

 

[Gunner]

I wouldn't say that all of us were expecting nothing to break. I've been expecting it, I was just hoping for a bit more life than I got. All in all, I know it was my fault and I'm paying for it.


I don't really think it's the Fluidampr myself. In my case, I overeved her a bit and with that kind of RPM, you'd have to expect the crank end to put a binding load on the LPOP gears leading me to think the best resolution is a Wet or Dry Sump system thus eliminating those gears. What's gonna blow after that fix? Good question, but certainly something else will give.

You need to do a reality series and get a network to pay for these mods your doing. You could call it,"6L PWR: The Quest For Horses"

I can just see episode 27..............................

Narrator:"In his quest for power, 6L has modified almost every component under the hood of his powerstroke, and so far has got 1200 HP out of this powerplant. But one important thing was missed. The stock radiator, not able to cope with the stress and the pressure, just fell apart and dropped out of the front of the truck. One the NEXT episode of, 6L PWR: The Quest For Horses"

I think it will be a BIG, BIG HIT

Gunner

 

[6L PWR]

You need to do a reality series and get a network to pay for these mods your doing. You could call it,"6L PWR: The Quest For Horses"

I can just see episode 27..............................

Narrator:"In his quest for power, 6L has modified almost every component under the hood of his powerstroke, and so far has got 1200 HP out of this powerplant. But one important thing was missed. The stock radiator, not able to cope with the stress and the pressure, just fell apart and dropped out of the front of the truck. One the NEXT episode of, 6L PWR: The Quest For Horses"

I think it will be a BIG, BIG HIT

Gunner

Werks for me. Oh boy, oh boy!! Network money! Ah, yep, ah, can do!!

 

[04Xcursion]

I wouldn't say that all of us were expecting nothing to break. I've been expecting it, I was just hoping for a bit more life than I got. All in all, I know it was my fault and I'm paying for it.

I did not mean to single you out sir, in fact of all the various "oopsed" posts I've seen you've been one of the most realistic and least bitter people I've seen

But I've seen enough posts (not here) where guys get down on Ford and the 6.0 when they cranked the power up to crazy levels with bolt on power goodies and then grenaded the engine or tranny or both. Or they go and say "It must have been the damper!".... Kind of drives me nuts... It couldn't possibly have been the extra 500HP you were squeezing out of the mill

I don't really think it's the Fluidampr myself. In my case, I overeved her a bit and with that kind of RPM, you'd have to expect the crank end to put a binding load on the LPOP gears leading me to think the best resolution is a Wet or Dry Sump system thus eliminating those gears. What's gonna blow after that fix? Good question, but certainly something else will give.

I completely agree with the revamp of the oiling system, you can expect to see a 100% non-stock system on my engine when it's done.

As for your next failure, I have a couple of possibilities:

1)As mentioned previously, the rear gear train, at a minimum I would weld the gear onto the cam on your next race motor.

2) Bent rod; I have heard reports that in high RPM applications the pistons will sometimes slightly cock in the bores and jam up; resulting in bent con rods. I think balancing and properly fitting each piston/cylinder would help prevent this kind of failure.

I can't wait for the TV series... Let me know when shooting starts

 

[6L PWR]

I can't wait for the TV series... Let me know when shooting starts

Yeah, if that would happen I'd be willing to give up sex!! Not with myself neccessarily, because that doesn't count, or oral, because again, thanks to Billy, that doesn't count either, but just in general!!

 

[mrxlh]

No need to weld the cam gear, the gears just need to be changed with an active thrust washer added. Matt and I have already discussed this fix, with the crankshaft manufacturers I have steered him onto, they should be able to "time" a new gear on an existing crank. All new cranks Matt has built will have a straight cut gear on them, along with the cam gears as well.

 

[04Xcursion]

No need to weld the cam gear, the gears just need to be changed with an active thrust washer added. Matt and I have already discussed this fix, with the crankshaft manufacturers I have steered him onto, they should be able to "time" a new gear on an existing crank. All new cranks Matt has built will have a straight cut gear on them, along with the cam gears as well.

Well, I'm not going with a billet crank so I probably won't get that particular update (although I haven't talked gear train with Matt in a while )

I have a couple of concerns with straight cut gears:

1) Will they be able to handle the load? Although you eliminate the thrust you also cut down the effective load bearing surface by shortening the teeth. In a race motor this is probably OK because a race motor is only expected to live 10000-20000 miles. In a daily driver with high life expectancy this would concern me.

2) Can you control the lash to a point where the high torsional shock loads are not going to destroy the gear set? I know the stock gears can run with a lot of lash but the reduced surface in a straight cut gear still concerns me.

This is good input though and I'm going to look into soon.