Cummins????????????

[crzybil87]

Hey, has anybody done a cummins swap? i have a coupla questions about it?

 

[Blue Goose]

There's a member with the screen name of Fellro that has done one....He usually checks in here a couple of times a day...

 

[crzybil87]

Oh tanks ill see if he would be able to give me some tips on it before i dive into this project. bu if anybody has any information or you have something you think should know please let me know as one ford owner to another

 

[Fellro]

What exactly are you planning on doing? It varies from project to project as to what you need to do, and what you want from it, and the like. There are many variables in how to get things done. It helps to be reasonably good at fabrication. I tried to keep the custom parts to a minimum so as to be able to find replacement parts as needed if something were to happen out on the road. I made my own motor mounts and such, but kept it mostly production stuff.

 

[crzybil87]

oh goo someone who hadone it themself. well, i have an 89' non intecooled 12v and an nv4500 tranny, and my buddy is a better welder then me so hell make the motor mounts and such, i guess what im lookin to get from it is reliability and the fact that i can say "i did it", im just wondering if thee was anything major you ran into while you were doing yours?

 

[Fellro]

Probably my biggest problem and thing I would change is the motor mounts. I followed Dodge's crappy design and used the sandwich mounts on the slope of the ford frame. Never again, they settled, and I had to make a 1/2" shim to move the turbo away from the air box. When you make your mounts, either make them sit pure horizontal if you use sandwich mounts, or do like the old Mopar mounts were and use an eye bushing. I have also seem a setup where they went horizontal with old Volvo donut mounts. (did that for a trans mount as well...) trans mount was relatively easy. I started with an auto, but for the towing we did, we trashed 2 of them before going to the NV4500. Going non-intercooled makes it go a bit easier, I have the cooler myself, just came with the parts truck. My suggeestion is to use the Dodge radiator, works just fine no matter what the naysayers tell you. Been running this setup for just about 4 years and never been hot, and we tow some pretty good loads. 7000# 5 horse slant, 6-2000# bales on a hay trailer (don't have the equipment to take down a double stack), my two car hauler with double stack scrap hauls, scale in about 24000 or so. What year truck you looking to plant this in?

 

[crzybil87]

wow.. Im looking to put it in my 89' and get rid of my dieing out 351 windsor, i want mid power about 400 would be good and all the tourque that comes ith it, and to try and get that with a ga motor i wont get any gas mileage and so with a cummins id get pretty decent mileage. but it is going in my 89' f350 i already beefed up the front suspension can hold about 10,000 pounds without squattin it in the front

 

[Fellro]

2wd or 4wd? That makes a lot of different things happen as well. 2wd is easy for the most part. I pulled a tired 460 and planted the 92 Cummins in. The pressure line for the power steering is one of the few custom pieces I have. I use the 92 Dodge part and replace the steering gear end with 5/16" hydraulic hose end. The transmission crossmember got relocated back a bit using existing holes, then made an offset bracket to transfer from the NV to the 86 ford transmission mount. ( I went with the 86 style mount because it is shorter, the 92 mount was HUGE!) I put a 3 degree tilt on the passenger side to get the turbo to clear the airbox without monkeying around finding just the right manifold, or flipping it upside down. I didn't want to deal with custom exhaust piping, as I don't have a custom bender, and it is pricey to hire. You will need to take your motor mount towers out, as they will be in the way. The big hole for the oil filter will need to get covered and such, as the motor mounts will sit on the oval holes in the frame. The 6.9-7.3 motor plates work great, but if you follow my suggestions, you won't really need them so much if you go vertical or eye mount...

One thing to remember when taking diesel, HP is not really what gets the job done, it's all about the torque. Don't expect the 89 motor to be a fire breather, the VE rotary pump isn't what the monster motors use, they use the P pump, which is an inline pump. The factory spec was something like 180 HP, and 360 ft lbs torque on my 92. I have turned it up a bit, but I doubt it is anywhere in the neighborhood of 400 hp, but it will run up the mountains with the trailer behind it and hardly slow down, my sister said she never got below 4th on the last run out east. These motors do not like to spin fast, they loose efficiency and power above 2500-3000. We run double overdrive to get it to be happy with 4.10 rears. It has a gear vendors unit with the 5speed... (The GV unit now has to be gone through do to an anomaly problem with the speedo drive... but when it was working, it was wonderful!) Myself, I would love to get my hands on a true gear to gear overdrive unit, no more automatic crap. US gear has gear to gear, but only hook up to automatics...

 

[crzybil87]

my truck is a 4wd, im probably gonna have to move the location for te transmission mout back a bit, i know i wont get 400 horse, i like to dream a bit bigger than reality, i be completely happy with 250hp andthe nut riping tourgue to pull ahouse down, do you think i would be able to use my fuel tanks i have now and just dry them out and get diesel sending units? what are youre thoughts on that? and you definately seem to know what youre talking about so ill probably follow what advice you give me

 

[Fellro]

Being 4wd complicates matters, as the output shaft from the NV will not work with your Ford t-case most likely, so you will either have to find a Dodge unit to use, or not use the NV and go ZF and buy an adapter plate. The driveshafts will have to be modified if you move the t-case at all. My complaint with the adapter plates is that they put the starter right by the exhaust, while the driver side is wide open. If you go with an adapter plate, I highly recommend the ones from Destroked. They use powerstroke starters and do not require messing up your bell housing.The later dodges used transfer cases with the output ont he same side as the Fords, so you may have to find one of them if you want to stick with the NV. One other thing on the NV is that they do not have factory or aftermarket support he same as the Ford will , as New Venture went bankrupt and there are not much for replacement hard parts out there. They can be tough to rebuild in the event you should need to. There is also a fifth gear nut that needs to be replaced, not a big deal, about $20 for the nut, saves a lot of headache. I got mine from a vendor on ebay, works perfectly. There is a littl fix that should be done in the Cummins as well to prevent possible catastrophic damage, called a KDP (killer dowel pin) fix. One of the timing cover dowel pins sometimes works loose and gets run through the timing gears, causing major damage.

Fuel tanks are reusable no issue. The diesel sending units can be tricky to find, and pricey if you go new. You can modify your existing hangers and use them though. I took the sump of the diesel units I had because it was old and broke off (plastic) and replaced it with neoprene hose that draws off the bottom of the tank. I sighted through the vent valve hole to see how well it got close to the bottom. Keep it about 1/4" from the bottom and you will be fine.

 

[crzybil87]

Hmm i have the zf 5spd in my truck now, what do you think the better route would be? cause i was reading on fordcummins.com that if i do use my tranny an got their adapter plate i would have cut some of the bell housing.. that doesnt sound fun to me.. but i didnt check out destroked yet.. i have the nv4500 cause it came with the motor for no extra charge, and i dont have the t case yet so i gotta find one of them too, wuld i have to run all new fuel line up to front, and obviously take the fuel filters out

 

[Fellro]

I used the fuel line from the donor truck to hook it up. Since you have the injected setup, you will probably be farther ahead to replace the lines fromt he tank forward. You will have to find a tank switching valve as well. You can use the same wiring for the gauge, just run the switch off the power from the fuel pumps.

Are you sure it is an NV? It wouldn't be original equipment to that truck, but the swap isn't unusual as many didn't like the factory Getrags.

The ZF that you have may or may not hold up to the Cummins, I was thinking more along the lines of a diesel or 460 ZF. There is adapter plates from Cummins that hook up the 4bt's to the Ford small pattern. These are a direct bolt to a 6bt as well. The only thing is the potentially small bell housing issue. I don't immediately recall the size of the Cummins flywheel, but it might possibly fit. I want to say 11"clutch...

 

[Skandocious]

As far as I know-- there is no difference in the internals between a small block ZF and a 460 or diesel ZF, it a different bolt pattern. If you can adapt the pattern then it should hold up just fine-- it's a very stout transmission.

 

[Fellro]

Seems to me the ratios are a shade different on the diesel unit. I could about swear the 94 I had to change the clutch out was physically bigger than the one I took out of the 92 with the 460, but hard to say, might just be my imagination. If it is all the same, then it is just a matter of getting it all tucked inside the bell... I have heard that the ZF gas trans actually works pretty good with the Cummins power band...

 

[john112deere]

Seems to me the ratios are a shade different on the diesel unit.

I think you're right.

I never paid all that much attention, but if memory serves, the diesel units were considered "close-ratio" while the gasser ones were "wide-ratio".

(Though, now that I'm dredging deep into my memory bank, I think one of the mid-'90s service manual suggested that there were, in fact, both wide- and close-ratio diesel boxes. Other than that one chart in that one book, though, I've never heard anything about a wide-ratio ZF with a PSD bellhousing on it.

 

[Fellro]

Might be from the IDI and Strokers both sharing the trans cases...

 

[crzybil87]

no, the kid i got the motor from didnt know hat he was selling so i got the motor for a steal and as i finished loading it in my truck he asked if i had a use for it, i looked at it and it was an nv4500 he said it came out of a 94' dodge 250 so i took it, it was free so why not? But i guess the question is which would be my best bet the nv4500 or my zf or if i had to find one tht came behind a diesel, i have to find a new t case anyways so thats not a problem

 

[Fellro]

Is the NV a 2wd or 4wd unit? That will decide even more...I doubt the output is the same between 2wd and 4wd on them. The NV is an extremely stout trans, just has some support issues... The NV trannies are good too, but you have the additional cost of the adapter plate. Word of warning: if the motor came from a 89, it needs to have an adapter plate for a 94 up to work properly with the NV. The bell housing is too short to work with the older plates. When they came out with the lockup autos, they kept the same case on the transmission, but the torque converter was wider, so they compensated with the adapter plate. They kept the plates common across the board, so the NV gets used with the wider adapter plate. This also mandates a change of starter, as the 89-93 starter will not bolt to the 94 up plate... been there.

 

[Skandocious]

There are, in fact, two different ZFs that were put into diesel trucks amongst the years--

ZF 42 and ZF 47 are similar units. The ZF47 is an updated version of a ZF42. The ZF42/47 manual transmission is in Ford F-250, F-350, and F-450 series pickup trucks. ZF42 is for years 1988-95, ZF47 from 1996-on.

They had slightly different gear ratios:

Close Ratio S5-42
(Diesel)
4.14
2.37
1.42
1.0
0.77
3.79

Close Ratio S5-47
(Diesel)
5.08
2.60
1.53
1.0
0.77
4.66

The 47 is rated by ZF to handle more torque, but the 42 is still plenty stout.

 

[crzybil87]

the nv4500 i have is 4wd. so if i get the adapter plate for the motor i should be able to use the nv4500 i have no problem then rigt? And i should get a 94 up starter cause it has to go with that adapter plate.. correct? where abouts would i be able to get my hands onone of those adapter plates?