Truck Prices as a Financial Discussion

[LEB Ben]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree Ryan. That last number alone on your chart is what I have the issue with. Pulling from your very own data, top of the line 4x4 in 99 was 40k (adjusted)...today it's 65k. There's no truck bubble there. That's 25k in cold hard cash, hell if 25k is imaginary to you, I'll take all the imaginary money you have. I doubt the median US income went up 5k over that same span. While I'm not saying bottom barrel trucks increased that much, at best I'd bet they stayed in line with the median income.


Edit...sure you can chalk up the price increases to technology and inflation...I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing, where's the ceiling on the fact that truck prices are increasing higher and faster than income. That's really the only argument I've had this entire time. If people don't have the money to be able to afford your trucks...how are you gonna sell any? Unless of course, they are trying to be selective in their buyers to provide a sense of elitism.

 

[O'Rattlecan]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree Ryan. That last number alone on your chart is what I have the issue with. Pulling from your very own data, top of the line 4x4 in 99 was 40k (adjusted)...today it's 65k. There's no truck bubble there. That's 25k in cold hard cash, hell if 25k is imaginary to you, I'll take all the imaginary money you have. I doubt the median US income went up 5k over that same span. While I'm not saying bottom barrel trucks increased that much, at best I'd bet they stayed in line with the median income.


Edit...sure you can chalk up the price increases to technology and inflation...I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing, where's the ceiling on the fact that truck prices are increasing higher and faster than income. That's really the only argument I've had this entire time. If people don't have the money to be able to afford your trucks...how are you gonna sell any? Unless of course, they are trying to be selective in their buyers to provide a sense of elitism.

Okay you're miscontruing the data........ Again.

It wasn't "Top of the line" in 1999. It was an XLT 4x4 supercab. I said in my very own words that they were various luxury packages with 4x4 - read: better than XL trims.

What is this median income and why are you using it? I'd like to take issue to that as well. How about we look at the people buying new vehicles? I wasn't born in a barn but my folks have never bought a new vehicle. They can't afford it. What's the 2010 median income? I can tell you whether or not they're above or below it. I have a feeling they're a smidge above, but they can't afford new vehicles. So for starters let's put a value on that figure as a part of the discussion as well. Maybe you should be talking about the poverty of the people, not the truck bubble.

And what's this imaginary money argument? Find me a sticker of a 'Top of the line" 1999-2000 tricked out truck and we'll figure inflation. I managed to gather the stickers on all those other vehicles with the help of some fine folks on here. Produce a few and We'll graph the largely unbought ultra-luxury segment with platinum f150's. These are discretionary spenders, not utility spenders so even if we see some mild increases, it's not a bubble - it's disposible income.

Median income and a 'top of the line' benchmark sound like the perfect storm to give us the 'hockey stick graph' of the global truck warming bubble argument. Median incomes don't buy platinum or harley edition pickups.

Ryan

 

[LEB Ben]

I was simply using the data you posted Ryan. At this point, I've said all I have to say, and I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree. I really don't have to have the last word or argue for the sake of arguing. I've posted my data, and I've used your data to support my argument. As for median income, I've posted links, they ranged anywhere from high 30's to mid 40's, currently. I'd imagine within a standard deviation or two of the median, would be the largest buying class...or used to be of trucks. If that class finds it more and more difficult to be able to afford these trucks, that has the potential to be dangerous for truck sales in the future. I simply used 'top of the line' because there was such a distinction between past and current prices...but it's prevalent throughout the segment.

 

[O'Rattlecan]

My data didn't cover any of the arguments you made. You said 'top of the line' and that's nowhere to be seen on any of my configurations. My data demonstrates that you get the same product for roughly the same amount of money over multiple decades. That's simply what it says.

So my folks make a good deal more than the median income. When you have 3 kids and a mortgage - a median income isn't going to touch an ultra-luxury trim package truck. Ultra-luxury (in any large-ticket industry) is not targeted at the medium income. Let's not kid ourselves.

It's not about the last word - it's about simple misrepresentation of the data. I'm not going to let it stand if I see it.

Let me put another nugget of thought into the argument. Back in the 60's and 70's, the truck market was designed for work. It was a utility market almost exclusively. If luxury was desired, the consumer would pursue lincoln or caddilac. The 'top of the line' argument you tried to make that didn't hold water would reflect a market that was uninvented in this time period.

I would like to put forth that I can't believe vehicles are as affordable as they are!

Ryan

 

[LEB Ben]

Let me put another nugget of thought into the argument. Back in the 60's and 70's, the truck market was designed for work. It was a utility market almost exclusively. If luxury was desired, the consumer would pursue lincoln or caddilac. The 'top of the line' argument you tried to make that didn't hold water would reflect a market that was uninvented in this time period.

I would like to put forth that I can't believe vehicles are as affordable as they are!

Ryan

Careful...that's kinda what spawned this discussion, I made a similar remark and Brad said he 'resented' it. I made the argument that trucks had a different perception 30-40 years ago, and then we went round and round in the last Raptor thread, where he said the sex appeal and truck phenomenon was alive and well then too.

 

[O'Rattlecan]

Careful...that's kinda what spawned this discussion, I made a similar remark and Brad said he 'resented' it. I made the argument that trucks had a different perception 30-40 years ago, and then we went round and round in the last Raptor thread, where he said the sex appeal and truck phenomenon was alive and well then too.

There's nothing to be careful about. I carefully chose my words to dissect your claim that trucks are unaffordable to the market. I demonstrated actual pricing to actual trucks. Let's not make it personal or drag in names because both figures you've used ("Top of the Line" and "Median Income") are inappropriate to making sense of the topic.

And how can you draw a comparison to the 'unaffordability' of modern trucks and use the Raptor as a specimen?

Ryan

on edit: I mean that's why I made my chart the way I did. To disassemble the claim that trucks were becoming wildly unaffordable. I gave you the 'utility' truck. Then I gave you some XLT's and 4x4's to also demonstrate that equipment costs cash.

 

[blacksnapon]

If Nobody can afford them, then why are we selling so many?

 

[LEB Ben]

^^^Didn't say no one could afford them...it originated as a discussion as to where the ceiling was. Hell we already caught a glimpse of that when fuel prices went over $4/gal.

 

[FordF-SuperDuty]

The 1999 truck listed above is a standard issue XLT supercab 4x4 f150. The sticker was 30,300.

I'm putting up the flag.



Ryan

Inside joke

 

[CaFordDude]

Did you know elephants can't jump?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Did you know elephants can't jump?

No but if they sit on ya you're screwed...

 

[polarbear]

I think some of you guys are missing two very important points here-

1) the Average pickup doesn't cost $40,000. In the land of Ford, you can buy a $20,000 base 2WD 1/2T, or a $75,000 F450 King Ranch dually- and all points in between. Most important point- whatever your budget, Ford (and GM) will build a truck to match it.

2) The fastest growing segment in the car biz is currently the luxury car class. Cadillac sales are up 83% from last year. HELLOOOO!!! Why would pickups not follow this trend?

 

[5.0Flareside]

basically, with all the new gidgets and widgets, the "top of the line" from 2000 is basically mid-low range of these new models... and the prices arent a ton different. the you cant compare top of the line from 25 years ago and today, 2 different times, 2 different standards etc...

a BASE MODEL 2wd XL V6 no frills CHEAPEST TRUCK THEY OFFER!!!

$23,390 after the $975 destination charge.

Decently option 4x4, pretty much back 10 years ago was the "Top of the Line truck" V8 3.73 LSD vinyl floors vinyl bench seat etc...

Platinum one of the 2 "top of the line F150's" Optioned out to the Max... every option that added money i selected...

Harley Davidson same as the platinum, optioned to the max...

never once in a half ton can you get 65k dollars.. at most its 52k... but thats alot of creature comforts that arent needed... the model thats similar to what the "top of the line" in 96ish, well its 33,810... and thats not a large jump from 14 years ago...

 

[polarbear]

basically, with all the new gidgets and widgets, the "top of the line" from 2000 is basically mid-low range of these new models... and the prices arent a ton different. the you cant compare top of the line from 25 years ago and today, 2 different times, 2 different standards etc...

a BASE MODEL 2wd XL V6 no frills CHEAPEST TRUCK THEY OFFER!!!

$23,390 after the $975 destination charge.

Look at the standard equipment. Fuel Injection, 6-speed Automatic, 4-Wheel ABS, Airbags, Stereo Radio, Radial All-Season Tires, Power Steering and Front Disc Brakes, LS Diff...

hell, half that stuff wasn't even on the drawing board 30 years ago. Bet the base V6 today musters more HP than a big block circa 1970 (if measured in "net" HP).

 

[Blue Goose]

​

 

[LEB Ben]

^^^It's quiet because I decided to let it go. Nothing presented changed my mind, and IMO, only furthered my points. And nothing I presented changed the mind of my opposition. In the end we all like Fords and hanging out here. And in the grand scheme of things, if you don't like the price, don't buy...but I still believe there will be a fall out either resulting from initial costs being too high, trucks aren't the 'cool' thing anymore or spiking gas prices. And the latter has already proven true in recent history. Sometimes the best settlement is just letting things go, so that's what I chose to do.

 

[Skandocious]

What's your response to Chris' evidence of the lack of $65k F150's like you were saying before? Best I can tell, there is an $11-12k disparity between the "top of the line" MOST expensive F150 and the prices that you were arbitrarily posting?

 

[5.0Flareside]

What's your response to Chris' evidence of the lack of $65k F150's like you were saying before? Best I can tell, there is an $11-12k disparity between the "top of the line" MOST expensive F150 and the prices that you were arbitrarily posting?

that and the "idea" that he had brought up about the raptor ordeal about buying a base xlt 4x4 and building it.... saying you could get a xlt 4x4 with a v8 for low 20's.. eh... wrong. more like 30kish...

 

[LEB Ben]

What's your response to Chris' evidence of the lack of $65k F150's like you were saying before? Best I can tell, there is an $11-12k disparity between the "top of the line" MOST expensive F150 and the prices that you were arbitrarily posting?

Reading comprehension works...go back and show me where I ever said there was a 65k 150?

that and the "idea" that he had brought up about the raptor ordeal about buying a base xlt 4x4 and building it.... saying you could get a xlt 4x4 with a v8 for low 20's.. eh... wrong. more like 30kish...

Again, I don't see with the links I provided before, how I could be wrong. In threads past, I provided direct links to 20-25k trucks.


As I said, there is no use in further discussion because my perspective isn't changing and people opposing those viewpoints don't plan on changing. And the majority of my viewpoint is this:

I still believe there will be a fall out either resulting from initial costs being too high, trucks aren't the 'cool' thing anymore or spiking gas prices. And the latter has already proven true in recent history.

 

[Skandocious]

Even if I was 100% off with your truck Brad, FACT of the matter is, in 15 years a top of the line truck went from 30k to [highlight]65k.[/highlight]

There it is.