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Generations 8-9 1987-1996 F150 + 1987-1997 F250, F350

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  #1  
Old 06-08-2017, 04:24 PM
Kaajot Kaajot is offline
 
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Arrow 1992 4.9L auto F-150 Starts Stalls, runs rough rev'd and kept in gear to keep going

Hello-

I've been working on my red F-150 for two years now, and we're almost to the point where I could show new pictures of the truck with some major mods. However, I'm back with a new stumper.

The truck will start (strong battery and connection) and then stall. There is black smoke out the pipe if I do this several times.

If I crank it with my foot on the break and keep the rpms up (likely doing damage to the transmission/flex plate, etc), I can switch the automatic transmission into drive or reverse and then take off, but as soon as I get to a stopping point or low mph (below 15-20 mph) it will die. This wouldn't be as big a deal with a manual transmission, but driving an auto with two feet is unnerving.

Finally, the last time I pulled this "hack" to get from point A to B I stopped several times in town and by the time I was headed home it was running rough and felt like it was skipping or misfiring.

A little history since a new transmission/engine job in 2015.

- Has f250 back suspension now.
- Has spacers on all wheels, next step up springs, heavy duty shock absorbers at all 4 points, and 275/75 wheels on the 15 rims.
- New Gear Box, tie rods thanks to twisting it in a ravine.
- New throttle body spacer and high performance K&N air filter
- Has new sparks as of 2015, new cap/rotor, and all new fuel injectors from Summit Racing with a slightly higher flow.
- Replaced IAC, tab, tad & egr solenoid sensors, MAP sensor, oil pressure sensor, new water pump, new starter.
- Other stuff is electronics like new fog lights, amp, stereo system, etc.

Since the engine/tranny swap there has been a slight manifold leak because the engine guy that was helping me sandwiched two gaskets together to try to repair it rather than take it off, smooth it out, and use the second gasket.

The tranny is also an AOD 4.9L and I have an E40D wiring system/engine, so I'm going to put a new E40D in soon. Currently the only EOD/EOR diagnostic code is low rpms to switch caused by the incorrect AOD. This was also installed by a shop for over $1K -- if I'd known better I would have never authorized him to rush the job and put an AOD into my E40D. My gas mileage has gone down over time.

Speaking of gas mileage, I used to get 19-22 mpg on the highway and now I"m in the 8-15 mpg, closer to 10 mpg since the engine has started cutting off.

Other symptoms when the engine dies is a noticeable drop from 12-14v to 10-11v before it dies. I thought the battery or alternator might be bad, but they work fine with the rpms engaged and stay charged. I only drained the battery trying well over two dozen times to get this thing to start the first time I experienced the cut-off symptoms after every start. The engine would die 2-8 seconds after it'd turn over and the drop in voltage was always observable as it began to die. This is more indicative of the alternator working properly and dropping in voltage generation as the engine rpms would drop.


Solutions:

SO far, I've been told to trouble-shoot the following: Check TPS, MAP, EGR Valve, pressure test/check the system for cuts/damage in the airflow tubes, check/clean the IAC, check the ignition module and engine modules, check the ECM for the computer's capacitor's for damage and fix them (radioshack soddering job) or buy a new ECM ($100-$200), and if all that fails, I've been told the distributor and ignition coils are the overlooked culprits.

I've read symptoms diagnostics via google of a bad distributor and it matches my symptoms, but it's one of those wiki doctor type answer and I wanted some feedback from this community.

Any opinions or alternative suggestions? Should I latch onto a new distributor? That's one part I've not changed in the new engine swap.

Appreciate any and all help, need to get this truck running!

-KJ
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  #2  
Old 06-08-2017, 11:41 PM
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Sparky83 Sparky83 is offline
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in some ways theres still too many unknowns..

  1. when the swaps were done did they ever retune the computer to correctly fuel and run this engine??
  2. whats the fuel pressure reading at?? (black smokes an indicator its running rich. if your getting large cloud of it then its really over fueling)
  3. have you actually checked to insure the ignition components are actually firing correctly?? (just because theyre new doesnt mean they actually work correctly.. ive literally had new parts outta the box that were bad)

the voltage drop can be a cause of the stall but can also be a symptom coming from the fact the engines stalling.. Slower the engine turns the less ability the alt has to generate the proper amps/volts.. 11-12v is norm for engine off key on... 13-14v is the norm for Key On Engine Running..

not sure on the 92.. but since you mentioned having a distributor id check to make sure the timings set correctly...too far advanced or retarded will cause the same running issues... if it hasnt been changed it could be the issue.. same if the plugs wires are not on correctly..
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Old 06-09-2017, 12:02 AM
Kaajot Kaajot is offline
 
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Hey Sparky83-

SO no, never retuned the computer after the swap with the AOD, nor after the engine.

We'll be finding out fuel pressure tomorrow at the shop.

Not sure about the ignition firing components? So, the spark plugs initially had been a problem because someone (helpers) dropped one and closed the gap, causing a big misfire. We caught that in July or Aug 15 and fixed it, seemed to "fix" the immediate running rough problem. Haven't checked the spacers since on the spark plugs, so some gap adjustment could help. The Distributor coil was replaced too I believe at this time, but not the distributor itself.

I'm pretty certain the plugs wires, they're on correctly. I must have checked the firing order a million times because help was wanting to wing it, but I showed them the correct firing order from multiple sources and that's what we went with -- it ran for 2 years? Got about 20K miles running in the current configuration.

Timings definitely will be getting looked at. I think the original engine mechanic adjusted those initially 2 years ago because it was getting too much fuel and flooding itself due to the AOD and higher fuel flow/pressure injectors.
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Old 06-10-2017, 10:48 PM
Kaajot Kaajot is offline
 
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Update:

There were two broken wires on the ignition control module. Patched those up, improved a little, still running very rough and cutting out but held up a little longer.

The transmission is shifting rough and gas is in the oil, prompting a new oil change once we get a few more diagnostics out of the way. The E40D transmission is getting pulled out of the donor tomorrow to replaced the AOD that never should have gone into the truck in the first place.

Do not ever go to Big Mike's Garage in Liverpool, NY. He put an AOD transmission into my E40D, charged me $1K for it, and it had the broken bell housing when we went to pull the engine 3 weeks later because it was again, running rough (similar to now but not cutting out). Not only does he not know what he's doing when it comes to older trucks but he's actually quite short (maybe 5'4") and looks a lot like George Castanza from Seinfeld -- the name Big Mike is quite misleading.

Hopefully will hear from the mechanic Monday on some pressure checks both fuel and air.
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Old 06-11-2017, 10:32 PM
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Sound like you may have a fuel injector sticking open. Causing it to flood. Might want to pull the injectors or at least put noid lights on to check the signal to the injectors.
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Old 06-11-2017, 11:46 PM
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when you say you fixed the "dropped" spark plug.. what did you mean by that?? just regapping the plug? or actually replacing it with a whole new one? reason i ask is the internal cores on the plugs are just as fragile as the ceramic outer insulator they can crack internally when dropped causing a short which can cause a misfire...

it definitely sounding like theres a fueling issue in there..
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Old 06-12-2017, 01:45 AM
Kaajot Kaajot is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky83 View Post
when you say you fixed the "dropped" spark plug.. what did you mean by that?? just regapping the plug? or actually replacing it with a whole new one? reason i ask is the internal cores on the plugs are just as fragile as the ceramic outer insulator they can crack internally when dropped causing a short which can cause a misfire...

it definitely sounding like theres a fueling issue in there..
Oh bother. Ok, looks like I'll get a new set.

Yes, we just regapped it. We don't know who "closed" the gap and how it was done. It could have been dropped or it could have been a careless press against metal before getting it into the hole. Sadly, I'm not sure which one or two were regapped, so maybe we'll be changing the spark plugs tomorrow too. Several helping hands wound up in the original gap error.

We're getting back at it in 6 hours, will update in another post, but appreciate the feedback. Sounds like I'll replace the sparks after only 2 years, which isn't terrible but was hoping to get 1-2 more years at least out of them.
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Old 06-12-2017, 01:47 AM
Kaajot Kaajot is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokey View Post
Sound like you may have a fuel injector sticking open. Causing it to flood. Might want to pull the injectors or at least put noid lights on to check the signal to the injectors.
I'll talk to the guys and see if we can pull the injectors out tomorrow and check it out. Thanks for the feedback!

Really hope they're not sticking open. The injectors were all new (the old ones were horrible, looked like they'd never been changed). And they were pretty expensive if I recall from Summit Racing -- about $180-$200 for all of them.
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Old 06-12-2017, 02:15 AM
Kaajot Kaajot is offline
 
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Thumbs up Update:

Ok, so we've done some stuff to the Truck and found some stuff.

1. There were two wires that were clipped on the ignition control module. Those have been mended, although my buddy may pull them apart again and sodder them up instead of using the quick fix metal clip technique.

2. We picked up an E4OD transmission with 170K miles. It's clean, not broken, and we're degreasing it right now overnight. The AOD is out of Red and boy was it messed up. The shifting problem was there because somewhere along the way that transmission lost all its fluid (did not leave a trail, so no idea where or when this happened!) They got maybe 2 quarts out of the AOD when they pulled it out along with a ton of metal shavings and silver filter. It was about to go, so this is good timing. We basically got 20K miles out of the AOD in the truck. I still want to sue the shop that thought it was acceptable to put an AOD in my truck (when I didn't know any better). Again, Avoid Big Mike's Garage in Liverpool, NY at all costs. His Yelp review is not reliable.

2.1 We shot the continuity through the wiring harness for the transmission and all wires are 100% good to go testing at 1.1-1.2 and one hit 1.0, but still pretty good readings. Happy that there are no bad wires in the harness.

3. We're putting a new distributor and distributor coil in the truck tomorrow too. This combo may fix a lot of the misfiring causing the oil to flood with gas.

4. The fuel pumps are good -- I have a dual tank and both tanks act the same way. I don't think the fuel pumps would both go bad at the same time and the selector works fine.

5. I may pull out the ECM tomorrow after I do a lube job while they're working on the engine and inspect it for damage to the capacitors and any other possible corrosion damage to the circuit board. That'll at least tell me if the ECM is good or not and if it is damaged it can be a big reason why the fuel/ignition controls have been less than stellar.

6. Still have to check and clean the TPS, IAC, and EGR Valve. Will do if there's time after the ECM and lube job.

Thanks again for the pointers -- we'll probably change the spark plugs again and check the injectors for any problems there.
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Old 06-12-2017, 10:09 PM
Kaajot Kaajot is offline
 
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Cool The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Update 3.1

The F-150 now has an E40D Transmission in it. It works. It improved the running and idle of the truck, big time, but that also had to do with the idle throttle being off. We adjusted it to the right RPM at idle and a few things happened. 1. The Serpentine Belt stopped squeaking! 2. The "knock" we felt in the engine went away and purred. So that was great. And it was rarely stalling at idle.

Besides that, we put a new distributor coil in but did not get to the distributor itself. The coil was pretty darn old (ie factory original) so we swapped it out since it was an easy $21 part we had. We may still have to try the distributor.

Now, it still stalls on idle because we found something while putting the mounting brackets for the transmission back into the motor -- the EGR Tube was completely disconnected from the catalytic converter/exhaust manifold area because of a righteous rust failure. Yeah, it's clanking around and not secure, causing all kinds of noise and pressure issues.

So, before we do anything else, the EGR Tube is next on the list later this week. The Truck heated up and started failing again (apparently in colder weather you can do without the EGR Tube connected, but when it's 80 degrees+ and you're running hot, it will stall and clunk and the transmission started acting sluggish at that point. When it was cold it was running great.

Also of note -- left side of engine (while in driver seat) has a severe oil leak. It makes the engine smoke. The black smoke out the tail pipe has disappeared, but the smoke under the hood was unsettling. I'm going to get the new manifold/gasket for the side pan on the 4.9L (I have no idea what this part is called atm) and disconnect a few oil lines and get it fixed so the oil slick goes away. The truck also needs the oil change from all the fuel that was dumped previously due to the poor performance (EGR and throttle tuning).

That's where we're at. Really can't give a better bullet point statement of facts until the obvious repairs have been done and then we can see what happens.

Side-note: The current 4.9 300 L6/v6 engine is not the original, but it has been rebuilt and overbored. It has run decently over the last 20K miles and we'll probably keep it in unless the knock doesn't completely disappear. The original engine had a minor head job required and is currently in the shop with most of the parts, being VERY SLOWLY rebuilt by a mechanic friend in his spare time. If we have to, the original engine with 126K miles on it will be finished and swapped if this engine is showing signs of failure after all other fixes have been accomplished.

Also, we have not done anything as far as calibration goes. Any helpful guides on transmission/engine tuning/calibration are welcome. My Haynes guide is missing and mostly trashed last time I did see it, so I've just been referencing online tutorials and fact/data sheets.

So far we're about $450 into the repairs but that was including a new-to-me and correct model transmission.
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