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Need Help w/ Front End 'Pop'

2005 E-350, V10, Torqshift
Purchased new - about 70,000 miles now

It began as a slight pop (subdued metallic clunk) only when turning and only on the inside corner during the turn. A slow rolling turn wouldn't make the noise - there had to be some speed involved. Left turn = drivers clunk, right turn = passenger side clunk.

Took it to 3 Ford dealers - they were happy to take the $80 inspection fee and tell me they found nothing (one dealer replaced all ball joints, but it didn't help).

8,000 miles later the popping is much more consistent. It's louder now and happens on almost every turn. I even hear/feel it now sometimes on acceleration and or braking. It's louder and more consistent on the drivers side, but it does happen on both. Sometimes it seems like it pops one way then with a slighter pop settles back?

I see/find nothing that looks loose under the van - no telltale rust from moving surfaces and nothing looks out of place or worn. I did put a wrench on the radius arm nuts and they're snug. I pulled a the drivers set of wheel bearings and they looked good; snugged a spindle nut to 30#/ft for a quick test run and it still made the noise.

I have the Ford 100,000 mile extended service plan (=$100/visit), so I'm going to take it in again, and the noise is loud enough and consistent enough that they should be able to find it, but I'd like to be able to offer the Service Writer some suggestions.

Can anyone help with any suggestions? I posted on another board, but exhausted their ideas. Let me know if a picture of somewhere on the underside of the van would help...it wouldn't be a problem.
 

Skandocious

Post Whores Make Me Sick
19,076
655
California
I actually have almost EXACTLY the same symptom with my 95. Only difference is that I can only hear it on right-hand turns, but just like you, I hear it from the passenger side. Same as you, it has gotten more pronounced over the last several thousand miles, and now I can hear it sometimes even when I'm just braking.

A member suggested, in another thread, to check the shock bushings because they can become worn and produce symptoms like this. I've yet to check mine cuz I've been really busy but that'll be the first place I look when I start trying to track it down.
 

O'Rattlecan

Redneck Prognosticator
26,687
797
Belton, MO
Sounds like Radius Arm Bushings to me.

IMG_0031.jpg

IMG_0032.jpg


The rubber part will wear out which helps keep it tight, but the plastic portion inside the end of it will wear down and no longer fit snug.

Ryan
 

blacksnapon

Moderator
Staff member
something to be aware of

FORD: 1997-2006 E-350, E-450


This article supersedes TSB 05-1-1 to update the vehicle model years and service procedure.

ISSUE:
Some higher-mileage E-350 and E-450 cutaway vans may exhibit cracks in the left or right spring tower flange.

ACTION:
Certain front spring tower cracks can be repaired effectively by welding a reinforcement plate at the crack following the Service Procedure in this TSB. If the crack does not meet the criteria for this reinforcement plate repair, the spring tower should be replaced.

SPRING TOWER CRACK REPAIR PROCEDURE

NOTE: SPRING TOWER CRACK REPAIR USING THE REINFORCEMENT PLATE WELD PROCEDURE SHOULD ONLY BE PERFORMED IF THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS ARE MET.



The crack must exist in a location that is accessible and allows proper repair. Use the reinforcement plate procedure to repair areas where a welded reinforcement plate can be installed while maintaining adequate clearance to the spring and other components
The crack must have no branches. Flange edges shall be separated or misaligned by no more than 1/8" (3 mm)
LH front spring tower cracks must be no longer than 1.5" (38 mm)
RH front spring tower cracks must be no longer than 1.25" (32 mm)
If any of the above conditions are not met, see the Spring Tower Replacement procedure at the end of this bulletin.

EQUIPMENT REQUIRED

MIG welding equipment is required and should be capable of 150 amps or greater using ER70-6 welding wire
A straight or right angle die grinder is effective for repair preparation
REINFORCEMENT PLATE REPAIR MATERIAL SPECIFICATION

Reinforcement plates used in this repair procedure can be made from low carbon steel of the correct grade and thickness, similar to the front spring tower. They should be roughly rectangular shape. Other shapes may be cut and used for improved fit to the affected area of the flange, or to provide improved reinforcement. Repairs to non-flat areas of the spring tower flange require reinforcement plates to be formed to fit the contour of the spring tower. In some cases, the service spring tower part may be suitable as a source for the reinforcement plate
The spring tower is made of low carbon steel (SAE J403, grade 1008-1010). Spring tower material thickness is approximately 0.19" (4.8 mm)
Reinforcement plate material thickness should be in the range of 0.18" - 0.23" (4.6-5.8 mm) Approximate reinforcement plate size should be 4" ± 3/8" long, by 5/8" ± 1/8" wide (102 ± 10 mm long, by 16 mm ± 3 mm wide)
Reinforcement plates should be uncoated, free of rust or oil, and have smooth edges and surfaces
REPAIR PROCEDURE

NOTE: A REINFORCEMENT PLATE IS REQUIRED TO REPAIR EACH CRACK.



Disconnect the battery. Use precautions to protect vehicle and customer installed equipment from damage during welding.
Support the vehicle on a frame hoist.
Remove the front wheel assembly on the side to be repaired.
Loosen the front shock absorber at upper attachment, or disconnect the front shock at the lower attachment, to permit the axle to move down so the spring can be removed. Remove the front spring upper retainer and the front spring. Refer to the E-Series Workshop Manual. If required for inspection or repair access, also remove the shock from vehicle.
Cover the wheel end, brake rotor and brake hoses with a welding blanket to protect from grinding debris and weld spatter.
Clean or de-grease spring tower and ensure that all cracks have been identified. Prepare suitably sized reinforcement plates for the repair.
LH only, if necessary for access, remove the rear most steering gear bolt and apply tape over the hole to protect it from weld spatter.
Remove frame wax or E-coat from the spring tower in the areas to be welded, with a straight or right angle die grinder with a Scotch-Brite™ (or similar pad) and wax and grease remover. Include areas of the flange where the reinforcement plate will be welded to the spring tower. Also, clean up the back or inboard side of the flange in the area to be repaired.
Use a small burr tool to grind along the crack and form a U-groove for weld metal deposit. The U-groove should extend from the trimmed flange to approximately 3/8" (10 mm) beyond the visible end of the crack. No more than 1 mm of the original metal thickness should remain in the ground area at the "bottom" of the U-groove.
Use a 36 grit 3" grinding disk and chamfer any sharp edges along the U-groove, and grind the spring tower flange edge smooth 1" (25 mm) on either side of the crack location.
Using a MIG welder, fill the crack from its termination back toward the initiation point at the trim edge of the spring tower flange.
Cool the repair weld with an air blast and inspect.
Grind the weld flush with the original outboard surface of the spring tower. The recommended grinding direction for this operation is perpendicular to the direction of crack.
Check the reinforcement plate for proper fit-up to the repaired area.
If access to the flange edge is good, position and clamp the reinforcement plate on the spring tower flange so that the plate's edge is flush with the flange edge (butt joint edge).
NOTE: IF ACCESS TO THE FLANGE EDGE IS POOR, POSITION AND CLAMP THE REINFORCEMENT PLATE ON THE SPRING TOWER FLANGE SO THAT THE PLATE'S EDGE IS SLIGHTLY INSIDE THE FLANGE EDGE (LAP JOINT EDGE).



Begin by tack welding the reinforcement plate in place starting at the plate's edges farthest from the crack. Check MIG welder torch access for the weld pass, then make a weld along the inside edge of the reinforcement plate. Vertical down weld direction is preferred when possible.
Recheck for proper fit-up, adjust as required, and then make another weld pass along the outside edge of the reinforcement plate. A vertical down weld direction is preferred when possible.
Cool the welded area with an air blast and inspect. If required, grind smooth to remove excess weld material and/or stress concentrations.
Apply corrosion inhibiting paint, Motorcraft Low Temperature Anti-Corrosion Coating (PM-12-A), to the repair area.
Reassemble the vehicle and secure fasteners to the proper torques, as specified in the Workshop Manual.
NOTE: VERIFY THE "T" SHAPED END OF THE UPPER SPRING RETAINER IS PROPERLY ENGAGED AND SEATED IN THE SLOT AT THE TOP OF THE SPRING TOWER BEFORE THE FASTENER IS SECURED.



NOTE: LH SIDE ONLY - IF STEERING GEAR BOLT WAS REMOVED, REAPPLY THREAD ADHESIVE TO THE BOLT BEFORE IT IS INSTALLED AND TORQUED.



SPRING TOWER REPLACEMENT

Spring Towers can be replaced if the above conditions for Spring Tower Repair are not met. These parts are for installation by a skilled welder at an appropriate vehicle repair facility according to the general frame welding guidelines in Section 502 of the E-Series Workshop Manual.

Refer to TSB 97-4-7 for replacement of the Spring Tower to #1 cross member rivet with a bolt.

NOTE: IF THE HOLES AND MOUNTING FEATURES ON THE RIGHT HAND SIDE (RHS) SERVICE PART ONLY DO NOT LINE UP WITH THOSE ON THE ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT COMPONENTS, AND THE VEHICLE WAS BUILT FROM 1/19/2001 THROUGH 4/10/2001, THEN THE REPLACEMENT BOLT HOLE SHOULD BE DRILLED AS OUTLINED IN FIGURE 1. RHS SPRING TOWERS FOR VEHICLES BUILT PRIOR TO 1/19/2001 WILL REQUIRE DRILLING FOR THE RHS REPLACEMENT BOLT HOLE. RHS SPRING TOWERS FOR VEHICLES BUILT AFTER 4/10/2001 SHOULD NOT REQUIRE DRILLING FOR THE RHS REPLACEMENT BOLT HOLE.



PART NUMBER PART NAME
6C2Z-5A306-L Spring Tower
6C2Z-5A306-R Spring Tower
 
I had a ford truck about 1996 or so in the shop.I was used to working on Hondas not fords.
It had a noise in the front when turning.While I was under the front and had a guy turning the wheel.
One of the guys walks by and tells me to loosen the trans mount,work the wheel back and forth and retighten it.
That fixed it.I would have sworn it was from the front end.
 
How 'bout those shock bushings :)

IMG_4405.jpg


IMG_4406.jpg


IMG_4407.jpg


IMG_4408.jpg


See anything you don't like?

Would the transmission thing have definite left and right sounds, and would the noise also happen on braking and acceleration?

Mine is not a cutaway, but I WILL check for those cracks.

I appreciate the help!
 

O'Rattlecan

Redneck Prognosticator
26,687
797
Belton, MO
On those radius arms... They LOOK good - grab the arm itself and try and force it back and forth as much as you can. If it wobbles or if there is play, then you know the front bushing is worn.

Ryan
 
On those radius arms... They LOOK good - grab the arm itself and try and force it back and forth as much as you can. If it wobbles or if there is play, then you know the front bushing is worn.

Ryan
Yes looks are deceiving on those radius arms bushings. There is a part of the rubber that goes inside the other parts and this can be worn and cause movement. I do not think you could grab the arm itself and move it if they are bad. You almost have to stop going down hill and measure the arm washer to the bracket then back down the hill and stop and remeasure it.
 
I'll give the arms some muscle tomorrow, but it takes good acceleration/braking or a 'speedy' turn to get the noise, so I'd be surprised if I could do it by hand.

My radius arm brackets are bolted to the frame. Could I back off the nut, unbolt the bracket and have a look, or are there other considerations?

Bill K,
I like this board much better. Thanks.
 
My radius arm brackets are bolted to the frame. Could I back off the nut, unbolt the bracket and have a look, or are there other considerations?
I know what you are talking about.
My E350, E250 and E150s are made that way and I wish my F-series trucks had bolts also.

I do not see why you could not unbolt them from the frame and it might be the better way to go. That way you would not have to worry about any adjustments and you can find out if there is play at either end of the radius arms.
 
I bought new sway bar bushings, took off the sway bar then decided to do a test drive before putting in the new bushings.

The popping is still there without the sway bar installed. Sheeeid! I'll reinstall the sway bar with the new bushings anyway.

So we know it's not the ball joints (they were replaced), the radius arms appear to be tight, the shock bushings look good and the sway bar is off.

I had it back to Ford, they couldn't find the problem even though they could get it to make the popping noise.

I'm going to put new bearings in the front drivers side to see if that helps. I'm thinking new races would be in order as well. I've put in bearings and races before, but not on the 350. Can I 'punch out' the races in the hub or are there special tools or procedure to get the old races out?
 

Skandocious

Post Whores Make Me Sick
19,076
655
California

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