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Option A, B, or 3...

Just as implied I am having a hard time sorting out the best engine/transmission/fuel system for my truck. The truck is a 1979 F-250 4x4 LWB, 4 speed T-19, with a 400M, and the build thread is on this forum http://www.fordtruckfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31733
Keep in mind this engine only developed in stock form 160 HP and 260 ft/lbs of torque, so biblical gas mileage is out of the question. My goal (as lofty as it might sound) is to find the most efficient combination of power to economy, and not be diesel powered. Sounds pretty far fetched, but I happen to have the time to come up with wildly unrealistic goals and I figure that I should share, if not just for entertainment value but for discussion as well. Here are the top four:
P.S., I would like to cap this endeavor at $5,000. Right.
Option 1: rebuild engine with increased compression ratio, possibly a better cam. Something to bring the HP up to 300 and torque 350. Then add EFI and back to a NV4500 5 speed.
Option 2: find complete 351W engine, harness and ZF 5 speed from 1992-1996 F-250. Cheaper, but would still be under-powered at 200 HP-310 ft/lbs of torque = low efficiency.
Option 3: find complete 460, harness, and ZF 5 speed from same era of truck. Same problem as with 351W, 245 HP-410 ft/lbs of torque. Not looking good.
Option 4: find complete 5.4 Triton from 2004-2008 F -series. This engine is available in both F-150 and F-250's, so it will more common but there is a catch. Most trucks came with automatic transmissions. ZF made a 6 speed manual for them, and it was an option for the F-250's (not sure about the F-150's). The trans, along with pressure plate and clutch can be sourced. But a different spline count transfer case would be needed since the automatic and manual use different versions of the NV271F transfer case.
To be honest, I'm thinking out loud and feel any one of these combinations will break the bank. If anyone has a cheaper alternative or can think of something I have missed, let me know.
 

5.0Flareside

GingaNinja
14,463
384
La Vergne, TN
Take a 300.
Port heads
Camshaft
Complete rebuild.

Will make loads of torque be pretty efficient. Great mileage.
Downsides. Won't sound as good.. Won't rev much and be much fun that way IMO. Also parts are harder to find..

351W
Some good heads gt40/p or aftermarket Trick Flows. Good cam. Roller rockers intake

Make loads of tq and Hp both. Lots more fun, sound better, parts are easier to find to build it/repair a aftermarket build. get nearly as good and some situations better mileage than a 300 based build if leave foot mostly out of it.


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Ford Power
 
Take a 300.
Port heads
Camshaft
Complete rebuild.

Will make loads of torque be pretty efficient. Great mileage.
Downsides. Won't sound as good.. Won't rev much and be much fun that way IMO. Also parts are harder to find..

351W
Some good heads gt40/p or aftermarket Trick Flows. Good cam. Roller rockers intake

Make loads of tq and Hp both. Lots more fun, sound better, parts are easier to find to build it/repair a aftermarket build. get nearly as good and some situations better mileage than a 300 based build if leave foot mostly out of it.

Thanks for your suggestion, 5.0Flareside.
I sort of counted out the 300 since my truck is 4x4 and I currently have 37'' tires, which are will replaced with 35's or 33's depending on clearance once 4" of lift are removed along with the 3" body lift. This is because I don't pass PA ride height laws and the body lift is rather haggard, like made out old fence posts.
The 351W is still a contender. I think within reason it could be put together to be somewhat economical, plus it in stock form with cast iron parts is still much lighter than the 400M. Again something to look into.
 
I'd go for a hopped up 400 or 460.
I consider that too, SuperCab. It would be somewhat cheaper to go with the 400M as I already have it and know that it is a good motor. Depends on cost of the build.
I need to really crunch the numbers on it, and I have the time to do so. Hot Rod was able get 505 HP out a 351M with a 400 crank, a bit of machining, different rods and pistons, and aluminum heads for about $6,700.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0702_ford_400m_engine_build/viewall.html
I definitely don't need the numbers this engine put out. Half of the power would be perfect for me.
I had read that 351C pistons will work in a 400 since they are the same bore and compression height.
http://grantorinosport.org/BubbaF250/perf/perf04.html
Can anyone confirm this? This would definitely create some more options for the 400.
*Note: I found this form Classic Trucks as I was typing this reply:
http://www.classictrucks.com/tech/1002clt_ford_400m_engine_rebuild/viewall.html
I will be honest in saying that I had no idea the stock HP/TQ numbers were so low. I knew they were bad, but 160HP/260TQ isn't going to cut for any type efficiency gain regardless of fuel or ignition type. The surprising thing is how strong the truck pulled even with 44's on it from the P/O. 37's really woke it up, as I'm sure 35's or 33's will help even more since I think the axles are still geared at 3.54.
Hopefully we can all benefit from some research into building a decent 400M.
 

taxreliever

Licensed to Represent!
14,695
287
Maine
There's a thread here where a 400 was built to get 500hp.....my engine build was modeled off that.

Sent from my not so smart phone using Forum Runner! :)
 

taxreliever

Licensed to Represent!
14,695
287
Maine
There's a thread here where a 400 was built to get 500hp.....my engine build was modeled off that.

Sent from my not so smart phone using Forum Runner! :)

Actually it is from that article in Classic truck magazine. That's how my 77 engine was built.

Sent from my not so smart phone using Forum Runner! :)
 
Actually it is from that article in Classic truck magazine. That's how my 77 engine was built.

Sent from my not so smart phone using Forum Runner! :)

I'm starting to like the idea of building the 400 primarily because I already have it, and don't have to search the world via the internet for a ridiculously over-priced worn out motor or parts truck that is practically worthless as a whole.
Time to check the Probe pistons mentioned in that article and get some real world figures put together.
 
Option one - build it so its about 10.5 or 11:1 compression ratio , make sure you fit hardened valve seats and run it on dedicated lpg/propane .... if you build it with the high compression ratio you'll be able to take advantage of propane's higher 105 octane level therefore getting much more power and efficiency than you would when running low cal 91 octane gas.
I'm not sure what your prices are there but here i'm paying $2.30nzd/litre ($6.70usd/usgal) for 91 octane gas and lpg is $1.38nzd/litre ($4.00usd/usgal).
Conventional argument is that you will burn a larger amount of propane than gas to get a given distance - well that is correct if you just convert your standard engine but if you build it to take advantage of the higher octane of propane you will burn about the same volume of fuel according to all the info i've studied up on.
This is something i am going to eventually do to my truck - my issue is that I'm efi and the efi propane kits are pretty pricey plus my truck being an '87 means that i would need to convert the computer to true multi port injection as all the propane kit's ive seen piggyback off the vehicles computer - i've tried running a hho kit and other stuff like that as i'm interested in alternative fuels but those thing's just don't really stack up long term (for me anyway)
 
Option one - build it so its about 10.5 or 11:1 compression ratio , make sure you fit hardened valve seats and run it on dedicated lpg/propane .... if you build it with the high compression ratio you'll be able to take advantage of propane's higher 105 octane level therefore getting much more power and efficiency than you would when running low cal 91 octane gas.
I'm not sure what your prices are there but here i'm paying $2.30nzd/litre ($6.70usd/usgal) for 91 octane gas and lpg is $1.38nzd/litre ($4.00usd/usgal).
Conventional argument is that you will burn a larger amount of propane than gas to get a given distance - well that is correct if you just convert your standard engine but if you build it to take advantage of the higher octane of propane you will burn about the same volume of fuel according to all the info i've studied up on.
This is something i am going to eventually do to my truck - my issue is that I'm efi and the efi propane kits are pretty pricey plus my truck being an '87 means that i would need to convert the computer to true multi port injection as all the propane kit's ive seen piggyback off the vehicles computer - i've tried running a hho kit and other stuff like that as i'm interested in alternative fuels but those thing's just don't really stack up long term (for me anyway)

I knew it wouldn't be long until a "Kiwi" chimed in, I've heard you guys have a love affair for the Cleveland based motors. Not to mention someone else on EFI website suggested I give this Australia based company a look:
http://www.chiheads.com.au/
At the moment I am looking on pricing and availability of higher compression pistons. Then I'll have on into the possibility of after market heads and a different intake upon suggestion.
LPG is something I had looked into a few years back, and it has its advantages as far cost and performance. LPG stations are not that common in the North Eastern US yet, so not a viable option as of now. But their are companies that market home filling stations that pressurize natural gas into special tanks fitted to cars with piggy back computer systems or LPG delivery systems.
And to think our fuel prices are steep, I couldn't imagine fueling 5.3 MPG truck at your prices Kiwi F150. If you have a build on your LPG let me know, I would like to see you pull it off.
 

5.0Flareside

GingaNinja
14,463
384
La Vergne, TN
That is a good option of building a 400. Ya can make real good Hp and tq with em..

Check out Duncan's build on the site.. I'm on phone so I can't get to the link...


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Ford Power
 
That is a good option of building a 400. Ya can make real good Hp and tq with em..

Check out Duncan's build on the site.. I'm on phone so I can't get to the link...


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Ford Power

I will check it out. I am starting to find more information about building these motors to make really high numbers, so this may not be a terribly expensive build provided exhibit some control and don't buy the $792 work of art form Down Under:
http://www.chiheads.com.au/manifolds.php
You have to scroll down a bit, but they have made an intake specifically for the 400M. Probably a good thing that I can't enlarge the image otherwise I would be staring at it for some time. I wonder if any of the big US performance groups make anything of this level? Time will tell, oh and so will the internet.
 
I knew it wouldn't be long until a "Kiwi" chimed in, I've heard you guys have a love affair for the Cleveland based motors. Not to mention someone else on EFI website suggested I give this Australia based company a look:
http://www.chiheads.com.au/
At the moment I am looking on pricing and availability of higher compression pistons. Then I'll have on into the possibility of after market heads and a different intake upon suggestion.
LPG is something I had looked into a few years back, and it has its advantages as far cost and performance. LPG stations are not that common in the North Eastern US yet, so not a viable option as of now. But their are companies that market home filling stations that pressurize natural gas into special tanks fitted to cars with piggy back computer systems or LPG delivery systems.
And to think our fuel prices are steep, I couldn't imagine fueling 5.3 MPG truck at your prices Kiwi F150. If you have a build on your LPG let me know, I would like to see you pull it off.

Chi's are awesome heads, know of a couple 550 hp engines running them straight outta the box on 393 ci engines. But they are bloody expensive!! I'm not sure if they bolt on a 400m tho? I've heard the blocks are similar?
 

5.0Flareside

GingaNinja
14,463
384
La Vergne, TN
Chi's are awesome heads, know of a couple 550 hp engines running them straight outta the box on 393 ci engines. But they are bloody expensive!! I'm not sure if they bolt on a 400m tho? I've heard the blocks are similar?

Heads are the same and will switch.. Same basic architecture of the engines just the 400 has a taller deck height..

Same concept as a 302/351W.. Diff deck heights but same architecture and swappable heads...


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Chi's are awesome heads, know of a couple 550 hp engines running them straight outta the box on 393 ci engines. But they are bloody expensive!! I'm not sure if they bolt on a 400m tho? I've heard the blocks are similar?
Yes, the 351C heads are the same bolt pattern as both small blocks (289, 302, and 351W). If am wrong in saying this, please correct me but if memory serves correctly the 302 head bolt holes have to bored to the next size up and retapped.
And yes, aussie_f350 the 351M and 400M engines are similar to the 351C in the fact they are essentially recast versions of the 351C with a taller deck surface to accommodate the longer stroke which is all made in the through of the crank and rod length. The 351M uses a roughly 1/2" shorter rod, making up the difference with a taller compression height piston, while 400M uses the same spec piston as the 351C combined to a longer rod. I don't know if 351M/400M crankshafts interchange with the 351C, though.
To be honest, the price of the CHI heads are not too far off from Edelbrock pricing here. I was looking at this set in particular upon recommendation from someone an EFI forum that I also posted this topic in:
http://www.chiheads.com.au/3V_185CC.php
What has my interest in these is the fact Jon Kaase is involved with the R&D of this company. From what I have read, he is supposed to be the best of the best in the world of performance Ford motors.
 
Heads are the same and will switch.. Same basic architecture of the engines just the 400 has a taller deck height..

Same concept as a 302/351W.. Diff deck heights but same architecture and swappable heads...


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Ford Power

You must have seen this as I was typing a response.
I couldn't find Duncan through a user search. Do you have links to his build?
 
I have found a possible substitution for the nearly $800 Aussie intake:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/wnd-7516
This is intended for use on a 351C and looks like it is designed to perform in my RPM range of 1,500-7,000 and is priced at $260. An adapter set from:
http://www.pricemotorsport.com/html/body_ap-29___ap-30_intake_adapter_k.html
would be required to make it work, another $325. I will get a total up at some point. I have been going on nearly two days of sleep deprivation over this. I tend to get a bit carried away with details and I quite literally have nothing else to do at the moment. I do want to mention that I will be carrying out of these options whenever I am able to work on the truck again, so everyone's input on this will not go to waste like I have seen in some threads where someone poses a questions, gets answers, and doesn't follow through with the idea.
 

DNFXDLI

The Token Canadian
Staff member

DNFXDLI

The Token Canadian
Staff member
Oh...and to those calling it a 400m....it isn't!!!!! smilieFordlogo
 

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