Theres a lot of talk about egr delete. My opinion, its dumb! I believe egr issues are a symptom, not a cause. The egr valves get ruined from coking from too much fuel, excessive oil consumption, or improper heat (too hot, or too cold). You delete the egr, you still have the problem. PROVE ME WRONG!

Can we start with the facts........what exactly is the egr's mission in life? What is it supposed to do?

Gunner

Ok.. Challenge..

Explain to me why it is when I disable an EGR in my programming software, Stock Turbo spool up is about 40% quicker than with it turned on? LOL

I've been running EGR disabled for 7 months and it runs much better.. Only time I've blown out the EGR Cooler was due to some very hot tuning I ran.

But yes you got a point.. Todd deleted his and he STILL puked coolant everywhere.

Well, in stock trim my EGR had serious coking issues until I started to run fuel additive religiously. After that I had no EGR problems. Later I had it turned off with tuning. When I checked the cooler during disassembly the cooler was still in perfect shape and the valve itself was not seriously coked. However, with the EGR turned off I got consistently better fuel economy and was never left trying to unstick it on the side of the road so I could get home (which happened twice when it was turned on); mine seemed to stick open and I was unable to make any power whatsoever.

I do not believe the EGR makes any improvement to the way the engine runs or it's longevity. I 100% agree that EGR issues are often a symptom of problems not the root cause, however I do not believe that EGRs are necessarily being taken off to "fix" these issues. I will certainly not have an EGR system on my new engine not because I think it is necessarily a problem but I do not think it serves a reasonable purpose other than an attempt at reduced NOx. It does not increase engine performance, economy or reliability not to mention it will make the inside of my shiny intake filthy

Agreed!

I've run DieselKleen as a religion ever since I bought my truck.. I carry 6 bottles in a rack in my toolbox.. I buy it before I get that Snickers bar

I live by it and wouldn't go without it..

Last time I pulled my EGR is was clean.. however it's never been active.. I keep it disabled because when it is enabled, my power is horrible.. My spool is greatly reduced.. However when I start building the 2nd block, it won't go on there.. I'll have it eliminated with a hose routing the coolant on by.

Storm said:

Ok.. Challenge..

Explain to me why it is when I disable an EGR in my programming software, Stock Turbo spool up is about 40% quicker than with it turned on? LOL

I've been running EGR disabled for 7 months and it runs much better.. Only time I've blown out the EGR Cooler was due to some very hot tuning I ran.

But yes you got a point.. Todd deleted his and he STILL puked coolant everywhere.

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No problem......when you disable the egr with stock programming, the turbo defaults to a fail safe mode, in other words, the vgt is set at a particular place. This fail safe setting is more "agressive" at lower speeds than the stock setting (making a feel of more power), but less "agressive" at higher rpms (which is harder to "feel"). NEXT CONTESTANT!

04Xcursion said:

Well, in stock trim my EGR had serious coking issues until I started to run fuel additive religiously. After that I had no EGR problems. Later I had it turned off with tuning. When I checked the cooler during disassembly the cooler was still in perfect shape and the valve itself was not seriously coked. However, with the EGR turned off I got consistently better fuel economy and was never left trying to unstick it on the side of the road so I could get home (which happened twice when it was turned on); mine seemed to stick open and I was unable to make any power whatsoever.

I do not believe the EGR makes any improvement to the way the engine runs or it's longevity. I 100% agree that EGR issues are often a symptom of problems not the root cause, however I do not believe that EGRs are necessarily being taken off to "fix" these issues. I will certainly not have an EGR system on my new engine not because I think it is necessarily a problem but I do not think it serves a reasonable purpose other than an attempt at reduced NOx. It does not increase engine performance, economy or reliability not to mention it will make the inside of my shiny intake filthy

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The egr will not "manufacture" the crud, the crud is a by-product of a different issue. If your egr valve sticks, dont eliminate the egr, fix what made it stick. NEXT!

blacksnapon said:

The egr will not "manufacture" the crud, the crud is a by-product of a different issue. If your egr valve sticks, dont eliminate the egr, fix what made it stick. NEXT!

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OK... How do I keep all the soot out of my intake manifold and engine oil with the EGR in place?

As I said, when I started running fuel conditioner my EGR problems went away, however running in a tuned condition with EGR off resulted in consistently higher fuel economy than with it turned on. Different strategies respond to tuning differently so my results are only applicable to the strategy on my PCM but they were repeatable and consistent.

04Xcursion said:

OK... How do I keep all the soot out of my intake manifold and engine oil with the EGR in place?

As I said, when I started running fuel conditioner my EGR problems went away, however running in a tuned condition with EGR off resulted in consistently higher fuel economy than with it turned on. Different strategies respond to tuning differently so my results are only applicable to the strategy on my PCM but they were repeatable and consistent.

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I only can go with stock programming. Excessive oil contamination.....rings,valves,valve covers,incorrect oil levels, etc........excessive fuel......temperature sensors, injectors, pcm,ficm,wiring. There is always a reason components fail, you just have to investigate.

I run PowerService (double doese) in every tank since my truck was new. I run a totally stock "programmed truck" and have never had EGR issues. When my PCM has been reflashed with updates, the EGR works and no codes are shown. I figure that the use of fuel additives makes for a cleaner burn with higher cetane levels and less "soot" when burned.

In the latest issue of Diesel Power Magazine, there is a whole article on a "delete pipe" for the EGR and cooler. The reason for it is that with performance tuning, the extra heat, soot and exhaust pressures were not built into the "stock design" of the EGR system on the 6.0L PSD motor. The article is a good read and states that the EGR valve and cooler can not handle the "higher than stock" heat, soot and such of performance tuned motors!!! Of course, they state that this "delete" is for "off-road use only" - ya, right!!!

I believe that fuel additives and coolant filters are the top two mods that keep the EGR cooler clean and flowing effeciently and able to handle the extra heat... but keep in mind. Int'l and Ford only designed their motors to handle so much power... and many people are pushing them well beyond their design limits (maybe not all motors people have... but many in my book).

I also believe that extended oil drains are bad and create more soot in the injectors and HPOP and not changing one's fuel filters on a regular basis "starves" the fuel system and injectors of the proper pressure and lubrication it needs.

This was the first PSD motor to have an EGR valve and with all the electronics of this motor... have a problem in one area.. and you create another problem in another!!

Obviously, I have have expanded the topic beyond EGR valves... but too some degree their all related.

With 117,000 miles of trouble-free driving... I must be doing something right with my 6.0L motor??

If anyone disagrees... then...

blacksnapon said:

I only can go with stock programming. Excessive oil contamination.....rings,valves,valve covers,incorrect oil levels, etc........excessive fuel......temperature sensors, injectors, pcm,ficm,wiring. There is always a reason components fail, you just have to investigate.

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I'm not arguing with you, but you missed the point of my question, if there is not EGR problem, I just want to keep unnecessary soot out of my intake and oil how do I do it with deleting the EGR system?

Which leads into my next question, what purpose does the EGR serve other than NOx reduction? As far as I know the answer is: none. Diesels do not get any of the performance benefits from EGR that gassers do. That is what is driving guys to delete the system.

Bear in mind that the folks who are doing these deletes are by and large not running even a hand drawn facsimile of stock programming and are not trying to "hide" existing problems, they are trying to eliminate a known weakness that rears it's ugly head in high boost/EGT situations. I do not expect an EGR delete to stop puking because I'm running stock head gaskets, 50 lbs of boost and 15 degrees of timing. But do I expect and EGR delete to eliminate a known place for coolant leakage because the cooler cracked.

Maybe I'm missing the point here, are you actually getting lots of requests from guys with totally stock trucks asking to delete their EGR system? How would you do this without programming? I know you can just unplug the valve and all non California trucks will default to the fail safe mode with no CEL but that is not really what we're debating here is it? I thought we were discussing a complete EGR delete, ie removing the valve and cooler, modifying the up pipe and rerouting the coolant hoses.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

My question is now..

By unplugging the EGR you are forcing the PCM into failsafe.. By simply showing it to be a fault with the EGR.. But if I disable the EGR myself by custom programming, what does that do in regards to placing the Turbo in failsafe. Now this is a good question and will require me to do some digging. I'm curious now as to what it will do.. Looks like I need to throw the laptop out..

Vince, do you know where the VGTDC will revert to in fail safe? versus having a functional EGR system.

I always profess, keeping it stock. If the egr cokes up, examination of the "coking" is warranted. Oily deposits, will be excessive oil in the egr passages. Find where the oil is coming from. Gray fluffy deposits would lead me to looking for an excessive fueling issue. Coking is not normal, it collects generally in the egr system, and the turbo. Diagnostics are required to find where this problem starts. My understanding of the egr system is NOX reduction, as well as an attempt to "adjust" the volatility of the intake mixture, to head off overheat problems. The 6.4 has more computer power to make these adjustments. What we are dealing with is the best attempt at the time to make these adjustments on a 6.0 system.

Storm said:

My question is now..

By unplugging the EGR you are forcing the PCM into failsafe.. By simply showing it to be a fault with the EGR.. But if I disable the EGR myself by custom programming, what does that do in regards to placing the Turbo in failsafe. Now this is a good question and will require me to do some digging. I'm curious now as to what it will do.. Looks like I need to throw the laptop out..

Vince, do you know where the VGTDC will revert to in fail safe? versus having a functional EGR system.

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I cant say what custom programming does, because I have only reference values for stock programming. I would think it would depend on the person writing the custom programming. Remember, the failsafe is in the programming.

blacksnapon said:

I cant say what custom programming does, because I have only reference values for stock programming. I would think it would depend on the person writing the custom programming. Remember, the failsafe is in the programming.

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I do the writing.. so I may need to call up SCT and see what they think.. I do know that by flashing the PCM with my SCT, it's removing the ford programming and replacing it with an SCT version. Now whether it removes all the parameters is my question..

I believe it does to extend, for example, I was the one stuck with the Throttle Plate.. I never got the privilege of having it removed by Ford. I did it myself by using a different PCM table that had no entries for the Throttle Plate actuation. Therefore disabling any and all CEL's while keeping the PCM completely unaware there was ever a Throttle Plate..

Wonder if this theory proves certain for the EGR as well. I honestly think completely removing it and placing the PCM into a state that it doesn't exist could be feasible. But than you normally move to a NON-VGT turbo when you do a EGR delete (in most cases) so the Failsafe is already obsolete.. But you are bring up a valid point Vince.. no doubt about that!

blacksnapon said:

I always profess, keeping it stock. If the egr cokes up, examination of the "coking" is warranted. Oily deposits, will be excessive oil in the egr passages. Find where the oil is coming from. Gray fluffy deposits would lead me to looking for an excessive fueling issue. Coking is not normal, it collects generally in the egr system, and the turbo. Diagnostics are required to find where this problem starts. My understanding of the egr system is NOX reduction, as well as an attempt to "adjust" the volatility of the intake mixture, to head off overheat problems. The 6.4 has more computer power to make these adjustments. What we are dealing with is the best attempt at the time to make these adjustments on a 6.0 system.

Click to expand...

blacksnapon said:

I always profess, keeping it stock. If the egr cokes up, examination of the "coking" is warranted. Oily deposits, will be excessive oil in the egr passages. Find where the oil is coming from. Gray fluffy deposits would lead me to looking for an excessive fueling issue. Coking is not normal, it collects generally in the egr system, and the turbo. Diagnostics are required to find where this problem starts. My understanding of the egr system is NOX reduction, as well as an attempt to "adjust" the volatility of the intake mixture, to head off overheat problems. The 6.4 has more computer power to make these adjustments. What we are dealing with is the best attempt at the time to make these adjustments on a 6.0 system.

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Once again, I am not disagreeing with your premise that EGR failures are symptoms not causes but I think you're missing the point of deleting it.

1) If your argument is that everything is best kept stock then the original premise of the challenge is worthless, deleting the EGR is certainly not keeping it stock.

2) The EGR sytem on these trucks may be a best attempt but it wasn't a very good attempt, thus the deletion of the system is a worthwhile endeavor. The only real benefit I can see it providing from your discussion is that it can provide valuable diagnostic information by the evaluation of its condition. Information which in truth could be ascertained by traditional diagnostic checks and do not require an EGR to inspect.

3) In terms of it's functionality (NOx reduction and intake mixture control) A far better job of this can be done though injection control and proper monitoring/tuning. This system fails because it does not provide closed loop combustion control, it provides closed loop pressure control via the VGT.

04Xcursion said:

Once again, I am not disagreeing with your premise that EGR failures are symptoms not causes but I think you're missing the point of deleting it.

1) If your argument is that everything is best kept stock then the original premise of the challenge is worthless, deleting the EGR is certainly not keeping it stock.HUH?

2) The EGR sytem on these trucks may be a best attempt but it wasn't a very good attempt, thus the deletion of the system is a worthwhile endeavor. The only real benefit I can see it providing from your discussion is that it can provide valuable diagnostic information by the evaluation of its condition. Information which in truth could be ascertained by traditional diagnostic checks and do not require an EGR to inspect.

3) In terms of it's functionality (NOx reduction and intake mixture control) A far better job of this can be done though injection control and proper monitoring/tuning. This system fails because it does not provide closed loop combustion control, it provides closed loop pressure control via the VGT.

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I didn't miss anything, my contention is that the egr system causes no trouble.

What about MY question.. Man ya'll just FORGET bout Storm..

I see how it is LMAO

Other than introducing unnecessary soot and contamination into the intake and oil and providing another failure point where coolant can leak directly into the engine (which under the right circumstances could result in serious engine damage).

Additionally, it provides no benefit either.