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Removing Cats

blackhat620

You Had to be There
1,687
150
Arizona
Ah, that makes sense. And yes I think the whole CARB certification thing is a silly waste of time and money.

Some things you may want to think about in reference to CARB. CARB has existed since 1968 and yes it is not perfect. But do to CARB and some of their regulations todays gasoline powered vehilces not only run much cleaner but also much more efficeintly resulting in not only better performance, but increased fuel economy and less manintenance. EGR systems resulted in significant MPG gains. Unleaded fuel, electronic ignition & fuel injection has resulted in making the 15-20K mileage tune-up a thing of the past. Not to mention your vehicle will now run at all altitudes without having to re-tune the engine.

Well maybe you can answer this question then: I know they dont check for this in CA, but I do run a custom dyno tune on my computer. This is to help correct the A/F ratios since the aftermarket intake had the truck running lean. It also helps the transmission shift a lot firmer, reducing heat and hopefully helping it last longer. Not to mention the extra ~40 horsepower is helpful to turn the 35s.

Actually CA does check for A/M tuning/alteration of the computer and with Ford & Ford family vehicles since 2004 (2003 for the 6.0PSD) the enhanced OBDII has made this job very easy for CA or any state for that matter to detect when they plug in the proper computer test equipment.

As you have found out just changing the Air intake has effected your engines operation, resulting in the addition of a "custom tune" to try and help correct the problem brought about by the A/M air intake. As far as the transmission shifting firmer the heat reduction will be negligable (especially for a street driven vehicle) the TC is the main contributor of heat. The downside to shifting firmer is greater shock loads on the drivetrain resulting in increased wear. In addition, increasing the Hp output will decrease the life span of the entire drivetrain. As for the larger tires, do to the increased un-sprung weight the wheel bearings, suspension and related components will wear much more quickly, and the brake system will wear more quickly and may not provide proper stopping power in a panic situation.

Now, this dyno tune is much "safer" than the stock tune and would actually be cleaner on the sniff test. However, I do not believe it is legal to alter the computer in CA. So say if I did have to get it checked...I have heard you can re-upload the stock OEM tune and drive it for a couple hundred miles to get the adaptive learning intact....and the computer will not show a code that shows a different program on there previously. Is this true?

Please enlighten us as to how you have come to the conclusion that your "custom tune" is "Much Safer" than the stock tune and is polluting less?

You are correct, it is Not legal to alter the computer in CA. As far as removing the custom tune and reverting back to the factory tune, resulting in the test computer & technician not being able to detect the previous change the answer is "Maybe". The reason that i cannot give you a definite yes or no answer without actually testing your particular truck, is two fold; 1)there are numerous A/M custom tuners available, they all effect the engine & computer differently and depending on the knowledge of the person who actually wrote your specific program & the sophistication of the product different results can occur. 2) CA built vehicles have a more sophisticated OEM computer program specifically so that it is easier for the emissions department to test and detect alterations to the vehicle. (Note starting with the 2005 MY FMC started producing all of their vehicles to CA specifications no matter where they were sold, and all vehicles were required to meet CA emission requirements by the Feds starting with the 2008 MY).

Unfortunately, as was stated by Polarbear in a previous post, modifying OBDII compliant vehicles is a very dicey proposition fraught with pitfalls & potential disaster. This was made exponentially more difficult with the rules effecting all 2008 MY vehicles and beyond.

Be very cautious of all claims made by A/M vendors who sell products for modern vehicles claiming increased performance and/or no detrimental side effects. Also run from the ones who claim they are protected by the Magnuson Moss Act as that seems to be one of the most mis-quoted legal documents in history.

I am not against modifying vehicles at all, far from it in fact, but just understand that any change you make has un-intended consequences. As the saying goes "caveat emptor" and "if your going to play, you've got to pay!"
 

blackhat620

You Had to be There
1,687
150
Arizona

polarbear

just growing older not up
12,878
607
Boring, Oregon
I am not against modifying vehicles at all, far from it in fact, but just understand that any change you make has un-intended consequences. As the saying goes "caveat emptor" and "if your going to play, you've got to pay!"

That's been an ongoing story with thousands of later-model car and truck owners. Years ago, engineering decisions were driven by durability concerns and component cost issues. As a result, it was relatively easy for an aftermarket hotrodder to get some serious HP increases.

With the advent of OBDII and CAFE standards, manufacturers today will spend millions to pick up an additional .25 mpg, Added to that, newer computer systems are not only complex, but fully integrated into all the vehicle systems. As a result, a tweak in one area can often lead to unintended effects- often in a totally unrelated system.

A simple example is how altering the air-fuel mixture can change how the transmission shifts. Another good example would be how aftermarket wheels and tires can have a serious impact on the trucks ABS system. We've even come across issues in the land of Chevy with aftermarket tunes that affect things like: power window operation, keyless entry and remote start operation, automatic climate control operation, four-wheel drive operation... you get the idea. One computer system interfaces with another, and they all have pre-set parameters to work with. Changing one set of parameters can have surprising effects, and they're fiendishly difficult to diagnose.
 

blackhat620

You Had to be There
1,687
150
Arizona
That's been an ongoing story with thousands of later-model car and truck owners. Years ago, engineering decisions were driven by durability concerns and component cost issues. As a result, it was relatively easy for an aftermarket hotrodder to get some serious HP increases.

With the advent of OBDII and CAFE standards, manufacturers today will spend millions to pick up an additional .25 mpg, Added to that, newer computer systems are not only complex, but fully integrated into all the vehicle systems. As a result, a tweak in one area can often lead to unintended effects- often in a totally unrelated system.

A simple example is how altering the air-fuel mixture can change how the transmission shifts. Another good example would be how aftermarket wheels and tires can have a serious impact on the trucks ABS system. We've even come across issues in the land of Chevy with aftermarket tunes that affect things like: power window operation, keyless entry and remote start operation, automatic climate control operation, four-wheel drive operation... you get the idea. One computer system interfaces with another, and they all have pre-set parameters to work with. Changing one set of parameters can have surprising effects, and they're fiendishly difficult to diagnose.

smilieIagree smiliewhathesaid YelloThumbUp

Exactly, it is just like throwing a rock in a body of water, the ripples carry on for a long distance.
 

mSaLL150

California Chapter member
Actually you stated far more than "your opinion", you specifically said that "you would absolutely guarantee the computer on an 04-05 F150 would never know". Then you proceeded to get adversarial with Polarbear, going so far as to say "that since he had never personally done the modification, he could not know what he was talking about". Further you admitted to never having done the modification yourself, but some how are of the belief that you can "guarantee" the computer will never know, and that Polarbear does not have a clue since he has "never personally done the modification". Nice double standard on your part. In addition, you brought up finding a CA inspector that can be convinced to bend the rules as a defense for the computer not knowing.:rotz:

Before you go playing "Mr Innocent" that feels he has been unduly criticized on a "forum", you may want to re-read and think about your previous posts!:nono:
While I have not done the modification myself, I watched my friend do it and he had no problems for years as I stated. I was stating as far as my knowlege and personal experience goes and clearly others here have experience too. And yes I do know CA inspectors who could pass me (and Polarbear confirmed that it is a problem in CA), but yet I am still legal.

My truck has well over 100k miles on it, well out of warranty (again, not using that as an excuse though). The A/F ratios with my stock tune and intake were dangerously lean and the custom tune has helped to correct that. Hell, it was lean with the stock tune :eek: The tuner I used tuned my truck for my driving style, elevation blah blah blah. The truck runs better now than it did brand new. I dont drive crazy, in fact I drive very conservatively most of the time so I am not so worried about it. I need the bigger tires for my hunting trips. After getting stuck multiple times I decided it had to be done and never look back.

I wish I had the time to reply to all your posts but I simply cannot make myself sit at my computer and waste half my day, but thanks for the links.
 

blackhat620

You Had to be There
1,687
150
Arizona
While I have not done the modification myself, I watched my friend do it and he had no problems for years as I stated.

As far as "problems" are concerned, if you mean your friends truck did not set a hard CEL, stop running & coast to the side of the road fine. But if you meant there were no consequences from his modification then you would be incorrect, as there were several consequences incurred by your friends modification. One consequence of reducing backpressure in the exhaust system is that the engine power curve is raised, resulting in less power available at lower rpm's.

I was stating as far as my knowlege and personal experience goes...
Below are your statements from your first three posts in this thread. These statements are far more than mere opinion on your part. You clearly indicated that you could "absolutely guarantee" the computer would never know! In the future if you are "only stating your opinion" you may want to indicate that and not get into "absolutely guaranteeing" things you cannot guarantee.

There is a lot of miss-information in this thread.... You can cut the back 2 cats off and the computer will never know.

...After 4 years and the better part of 80k miles without the rear cats on my friend's 2004, I can absolutely guarantee you the computer on the 04-05 f150will not know....

...Plugging into the OBDII port will not show a code for missing rear cats as the computer will never detect it in the first place. ...





...Now, this dyno tune is much "safer" than the stock tune and would actually be cleaner on the sniff test. ...
...The A/F ratios with my stock tune and intake were dangerously lean and the custom tune has helped to correct that. Hell, it was lean with the stock tune...
The tuner I used tuned my truck for my driving style, elevation blah blah blah...

Couple of questions;
How did you determine your engine was running "dangerously lean"?

How did you determine your engine is now "much cleaner on the sniff test"?

FYI, all modern computer controlled, fuel injected engines are designed & tuned by the OEM to run correctly at any elevation encountered while driving. The engine does not require a seperate custom tune for different elevations.

FTF is a wonderful community of automotive fanatics with varied backgrounds, experiences and knowledge, who come together to share their collective knowledge and learn from each other. We do however try very hard to keep the technical information correct and accurate thus limitting the spread of incorrect information. The internet is a wonderous tool for sharing knowledge & information, but unfortunately do to the speed and shear number of entries on the WWW, mis-information quickly becomes accepted as gospel truth, then it becomes very difficult to correct the mis-information. Pull up a chair, share, learn and enjoy the great knowledge base and people here, but try and leave the attitude at the door.:beer: :wave:
 

blackhat620

You Had to be There
1,687
150
Arizona
Is there any way to fool the computer and remove that cats on these trucks? reprogramming or hacking?

Mike,

I learned a long time ago to not say something is impossible, but unfortunately on OBDII vehicles it is damn close. There are a few problems, 1) you are never totally able to rewrite all of the software in a vehicles computer system, because do to its proprietary nature you do not have access to all the source code etc needed. Also some parts of the computer are not flashable; 2) there is never just one sensor dedicated to only controlling one single aspect of the vehicles operation so when you change one thing you get into a cascading effect; 3) also you have the basic laws of physics and the fact that an internal combustion engine is basically an air pump. You change any one thing and it effects the entire flow characteristics and dynamics of the engine. This flow change is not specific to only computer controlled engines, it effects all internal combustion engines. This is the reason OEM manufactures and race teams spend millions of dollars trying to eek out a small improvement in power and efficiency.

There is also a lot of mis-information about catalytic converter removal and performance gains. When the first generation of catalytic converters were installed in the 1970's they were highly restrictive and prone to internal failure. But modern catalytic converters are highly efficient and very free flowing. Removing a modern catalytic converter does very little to reduce back pressure. The downside to decreasing the backpressure is that by doing so you actully reduce the performance and efficiency of the engine and change the power curve. All engines need a certain amount of backpressure to operate properly. Change the backpressure and you change the flow characteristics in the engine, this effects scavenging, intake velocity, fuel charge mixture, combustion temperatures, mean cylinder pressure etc. A perfect example of unintended consequences was when the NHRA mandated mufflers be installed in several classes. Initially everyone complained, but in actual use the installation of mufflers resulted in more beneficial air flows and better tuning parameters of the engine. This resulted in increased power & efficeincy leading to lower ET's.
 

mSaLL150

California Chapter member
Couple of questions;
How did you determine your engine was running "dangerously lean"?

How did you determine your engine is now "much cleaner on the sniff test"?
Had the truck on the dyno, A/F ratios were quite lean on the OEM program, especially above ~3k RPM.


blackhat620 said:
FTF is a wonderful community of automotive fanatics with varied backgrounds, experiences and knowledge, who come together to share their collective knowledge and learn from each other. We do however try very hard to keep the technical information correct and accurate thus limitting the spread of incorrect information. The internet is a wonderous tool for sharing knowledge & information, but unfortunately do to the speed and shear number of entries on the WWW, mis-information quickly becomes accepted as gospel truth, then it becomes very difficult to correct the mis-information. Pull up a chair, share, learn and enjoy the great knowledge base and people here, but try and leave the attitude at the door.:beer: :wave:
I understand that. I am a member on other much larger and faster moving forums, so I know how they work and yes they are a great source of information. Sorry to have upset you all, my post count isn't much but like I said I dont have the time to burn at the computer that you guys have. :)

And while I do have multiple "illegal" mods on my truck, deleted cats are NOT one of them.
 

bigun72

XLT= Xtra Loud Truck
when i bought my 04 it had a magnaflow on it , single in dual out , duals run out the back with tips , it was quiet..... i just cut the muffler &pipes off rite infront of the muffler , and it had a good deap tone ....... and all it had was cats & straight pipe , the pipe ended about where the cab met the bed...... good cheap way out
 

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