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Barnett High Performance

blackhat620

You Had to be There
1,687
150
Arizona
Thanks for the info...that did help clear some things up. As for the 400/460 debate, everyone has their preference and likes to be different in their own little ways. Everyone goes 460...and I prefer a realm of sticking what came in these trucks. And the more I got to thinking about it, somebody not willing to offer more info on a product, just didn't endear me to them. Thanks again for the technical assistance.

I understand wanting to stick with "what came in your truck", but once you get past a 434 in a 351M/400, the engine block is not going to resemble the OEM block in very many ways, and a 496 is going to be a highly modified custom block. Not to mention the costs start become astronomical and the benefits minimal.

If you are building a full race engine, then you take everything to the max limit of the rule book and cost is no object, because the only object is winning. But longevity of the engine decreases and costs increase.

For an engine you do not need to rebuild after every race then you need to start looking at the realistic design limits of the engine. IMO for the 351M/400 max bore for a DD that you can tow and play with, without spending a lot of time rebuilding or fight heating issues, max bore of 4.030 and keep the stroke at 4.10. Yes there are several builds with 4.17, 4.2 & now TMI's 4.25 but remember as stroke length increases you have more piston instability do to BDC distance in relation to bore length (ie how far the piston hangs out of the cylinder), lower rod ratio which increases cylinder wall loading, shorter piston compression height and you also need to clearance the rod bolts and use a "small base cam". All of these things can be done but as you increase the modifications the durability of the engine goes down.

Bottom line building a performance engine is a series of tradeoffs to achieve the end use goal and stay within the budget of your wallet.
 

LEB Ben

Arrogant A-hole At-Large
34,919
1,124
outside your house
Thanks man...that's kinda info I was looking for.
 

blackhat620

You Had to be There
1,687
150
Arizona
And besides from what i've seen on the TMI site, you can get better numbers out of these engines then you can out of a 460 minus the weight.

The weight penalty for going from a small block 351M/400 to a big block 429/460 is only 145 lbs. The 4.9 bore spacing on a big block allows you to build a much larger, stronger and more powerful engine for a lot less money than a small block. Comparing a highly modified 351M/400 to a stock 460 is just not realistic.
 

TexasNomad

FTFS Designated DRINKER!
Well i've seen the number compared to modded 460s and they dont lie.
So sorry man, these engines are kind of the bastard child, but i've seem bigger numbers while running less rpms and lower octane ratings.

So I say go TMI.
 

blackhat620

You Had to be There
1,687
150
Arizona
Well i've seen the number compared to modded 460s and they dont lie.So sorry man, these engines are kind of the bastard child, but i've seem bigger numbers while running less rpms and lower octane ratings.
So I say go TMI.

Tex,
The big block rules the strip for one reason it is the biggest baddest and fastest. Small block engines are not bastard childs, but they do not outperform a big block when comparing mod to mod. When all the top fuel teams start losing to small blocks then maybe you will have something, but thats never going to happen unless we change physics. BTW octane needs are determined by compression ratio and timing.
 

LEB Ben

Arrogant A-hole At-Large
34,919
1,124
outside your house
Yeah Tex...as the old saying goes, there's no replacement for displacement. Start with the biggest platform possible. If you throw the same amount of money into a 302, 400 and 460...with comparable parts...the 460 will outperform the others hands down all day. Now if you drop the 5k to do a 434 kit to a 400 and put that against a stock 460, yeah, the 434 would win.


Personally, I just like the 335's because they're always bagged on and everyone always goes 460...so I prefer to be a tad different.
 

DNFXDLI

The Token Canadian
Staff member
Personally, I just like the 335's because they're always bagged on and everyone always goes 460...so I prefer to be a tad different.

That's pretty much why I went that route.
 

blackhat620

You Had to be There
1,687
150
Arizona
Yeah Tex...as the old saying goes, there's no replacement for displacement. Start with the biggest platform possible. If you throw the same amount of money into a 302, 400 and 460...with comparable parts...the 460 will outperform the others hands down all day. Now if you drop the 5k to do a 434 kit to a 400 and put that against a stock 460, yeah, the 434 would win.
smilieIagree smiliewhathesaid

Personally, I just like the 335's because they're always bagged on and everyone always goes 460...so I prefer to be a tad different.

Don't get me wrong, i love small block engines, have built several and for most applications prefer them to a big block. The main reason the 351M/400 usually gets swapped for a 460 is that it is an easy cheap swap. All you need is a donor 460, fly wheel & motor mounts and it is a direct bolt-in installation. Results are increased performance on a stock budget.
 

TexasNomad

FTFS Designated DRINKER!
And I like getting under peoples thin skin..
lol I was going to 460 but then I started looking dyno numbers of 460s and TMIs 400 and the 400 numbers were better and in the range I wanted..
if the engine can make more power at lower rpms running low to mid grade gas then a built big block..
does that make it a better engine? Hell I dunno know.
 

blackhat620

You Had to be There
1,687
150
Arizona
And I like getting under peoples thin skin..
lol I was going to 460 but then I started looking dyno numbers of 460s and TMIs 400 and the 400 numbers were better and in the range I wanted..
if the engine can make more power at lower rpms running low to mid grade gas then a built big block.. does that make it a better engine? Hell I dunno know.

Tex,

For the same build money spent on the 434 stroker, you can build a big block stroker. Dyno numbers are misleading because they can be skewed by the person running the dyno, also the choice of rod, piston, heads, intake, cam, exhaust etc will change the torque/Hp curve. Stroker motors have to produce there power at lower RPM because of the rotating assembly geometry, longer stroke engines will not rev as high before they come apart. When you build an engine you need to determine where you want the max point of the power band to be and based on that information choose the correct bore, stroke, cam, intake, head design, compression and tuning to fit the required needs. A big block will run just fine on low octane fuel, it does not matter if the engine is big block or small block, this does not effect fuel octane requirements. Fuel octane requirements are based on compression ratio and timing.
It all gets down to how big of wallet you have. If you have an unlimited budget you can make anything go fast. Formula 1 engines used to be 1.5L (92 cu in) turbocharged producing 750Hp, then in 1989 the governing body forced them to go back to naturally aspirated engines and today the engines are limited to 2.4L (147 cu in) and produce 750Hp at 19K RPM.
 

TexasNomad

FTFS Designated DRINKER!
Tex,

For the same build money spent on the 434 stroker, you can build a big block stroker. Dyno numbers are misleading because they can be skewed by the person running the dyno, also the choice of rod, piston, heads, intake, cam, exhaust etc will change the torque/Hp curve. Stroker motors have to produce there power at lower RPM because of the rotating assembly geometry, longer stroke engines will not rev as high before they come apart. When you build an engine you need to determine where you want the max point of the power band to be and based on that information choose the correct bore, stroke, cam, intake, head design, compression and tuning to fit the required needs. A big block will run just fine on low octane fuel, it does not matter if the engine is big block or small block, this does not effect fuel octane requirements. Fuel octane requirements are based on compression ratio and timing.
It all gets down to how big of wallet you have. If you have an unlimited budget you can make anything go fast. Formula 1 engines used to be 1.5L (92 cu in) turbocharged producing 750Hp, then in 1989 the governing body forced them to go back to naturally aspirated engines and today the engines are limited to 2.4L (147 cu in) and produce 750Hp at 19K RPM.

some time I dont know, I hear so many conflicting things from so many people, so I look at Dyno numbers and price now.
I guess I saying I dont know who or what to believe.
 

LEB Ben

Arrogant A-hole At-Large
34,919
1,124
outside your house
some time I dont know, I hear so many conflicting things from so many people, so I look at Dyno numbers and price now.
I guess I saying I dont know who or what to believe.


Easiest thing to go by is...no replacement for displacement...when all things equal. 3 grand is gonna go further and yield better/bigger results the bigger the stock displacement...just a rule of thumb.
 

blackhat620

You Had to be There
1,687
150
Arizona
But i've been thinking about buying a 460 from cars by Carl, but 460s just suck so much damn gas.

Yes generally speaking a big block will use more fuel than a small block, again do to the basic fact of more cubic inches, and the fact that most people can't control their right foot. Now the exception is the modern modular engine with fuel injection and computer control, the 5.4L V8 & 6.8L V10 get the same MPG in normal driving and the V10 will get better mileage towing/hauling.

Don't get me wrong Tex the small block motors are great motors and most people already have one in their vehicle so it makes for an inexpensive starting point for mods. Also TMI has good products and well thought out kits, again it gets down to needs and money.YelloThumbUp
 

TexasNomad

FTFS Designated DRINKER!
M y needs!
a good street engine that will have a long life and get me in to tons of troube and coast me a fortune in rubber :D
 

LEB Ben

Arrogant A-hole At-Large
34,919
1,124
outside your house
M y needs!
a good street engine that will have a long life and get me in to tons of troube and coast me a fortune in rubber :D


That said...you'll want something in the 10:1 compression range...and work backwards.
 

1985 Ford F-150

Country Boys Can Survive
7,816
307
Tooele, Utah
Id say 10:1 would be about right with stock crank and rods .030 if it needs to get bored. Then just select a cam and get your heads gone through and ya got a good motor.
 

blackhat620

You Had to be There
1,687
150
Arizona
Easiest thing to go by is...no replacement for displacement...when all things equal. 3 grand is gonna go further and yield better/bigger results the bigger the stock displacement...just a rule of thumb.
smilieIagree smiliewhathesaid

some time I dont know, I hear so many conflicting things from so many people, so I look at Dyno numbers and price now.
I guess I saying I dont know who or what to believe.

Tex,

It all gets down to what you want the engine to do and how large a check book you have. Unfortunately most people are biased toward what they like, so they try to stear you in that direction. Dyno numbers are fine to have after you build your motor to see what it is acutally doing. Unfortunately all marketing/advertising departments put dyno numbers out there like they are gospel, unfortunately dyno numbers are easily skewed and the person operating the dyno can have a huge impact on results, not to mention weather & tuning.

Bottom line pick the engine you like and build it, this thread started with Ben wanting more information on a 496 stroked 400 small block, and when you start getting to this level of modification the cost per Hp produced is going to be extremely high and the reliability is going to decrease. Hence the reason i suggested a 460 big block swap for a lot less money or just adding a turbo charger or blower to the small block.
 

blackhat620

You Had to be There
1,687
150
Arizona
That said...you'll want something in the 10:1 compression range...and work backwards.

Id say 10:1 would be about right with stock crank and rods .030 if it needs to get bored. Then just select a cam and get your heads gone through and ya got a good motor.
smilieIagree
Great advice here. 10.5:1 is about max on a normally aspirated engine and pump gas. 9:1 on forced induction and 12.5:1 if you don't mind buying 100LL
 

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